Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 In today's episode, we discuss five church gathering trends. Every pastor needs to know. And what we all hope is the late stage of the coronavirus pandemic. It is clear that this has been a time of significant change for churches, but which of these changes are going to become permanent. Join us as we think through how church gatherings will shift in the coming years and what your church can do to prepare, we hope this conversation helps your church reach more people and grow.
Speaker 1 00:00:38 You're listening to the right podcast. The show dedicated to helping pastors and church leaders reach people the right way, hosted by me, Thomas Costello, and with me as always is my cohost Ian Hyatt. We're here to help you your church see more visitors and grow. Hey guys, welcome
Speaker 0 00:01:07 To the right podcast. Episode number 33. I am your host Thomas Costello. And with me as always is my cohost
Speaker 2 00:01:15 Ian. Hi, what's up Thomas?
Speaker 0 00:01:18 Hey, not too much, man. Looking forward to our topic today, we're talking about five church gathering trends that every pastor needs to know. Uh, I think it should be a fun conversation because we have, uh, we have seen a lot of church gathering changes over the last year. Would you say, huh?
Speaker 2 00:01:36 Yeah, that's safe to say for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:01:39 Yeah. Every church in the world, probably certainly in our country has been forced into some changes, some of them longer than others. Uh, and those changes, uh, mostly centered around the way that we gathered, uh, on Sunday mornings or during our worship services are gathered in general. Um, I'm here as, uh, I live in Hawaii as you know, but maybe our audience doesn't and we had some of the strictest coronavirus rules in the country here. And, uh, to this day we haven't reopened our church services. For those of you that are maybe listening after the fact today is February the 18th of 2021. Uh, so people are starting to get vaccinated, but, uh, we've had a couple of like gatherings at other churches, but, um, we have not been able to meet in our building, uh, since March of last year. So a full year without being in church. So it's been, uh, just full of change here. How about you? Have you guys, uh, what, what's your experience been there?
Speaker 2 00:02:38 Yeah. And in Texas, as, as many may know, we've been a little more open and, and uh, less, less restrictions and more churches meeting. Again, some have chosen not to gather and, and even some have still not met since the initial shutdown, my church, we started, uh, we reopened in June and had a brief shutdown while brief a few weeks shut down in July when we started seeing some cases spike and our worship leader came down, uh, with the virus pretty bad, uh, hospitalized. He's fine now. Thank God and all of that, but we reopened, it had been open ever since, and it's been going well for us, uh, so far. And, and, uh, so we've, yeah, it's different, like you said, from place to place.
Speaker 0 00:03:20 Yeah, it's really a trip. And I guess the theme today is that I think the question for a lot of pastors minds is what is going to be a permanent change and what is going to get back to normal, because I think there's two ends of the spectrum. There's some people that I talked to that were just under this impression that coronavirus ends and then it's like 2019 all over again, like everything goes back to the way that it was. And I don't think that's the case. And then I also don't think that it's the case that like everything is going to stay in this new coronavirus world that we live in. I think we're going to go back to having some gatherings or, you know, we're, we, it's going to feel more and more normal. God-willing that's going to happen sooner rather than later.
Speaker 0 00:03:59 Hopefully by summer fall, things are going to be totally back to whatever that new normal is. And so we kept joking about how everybody kept saying new normal, this, a new normal that, and I know it's a, it's a cliche, but there is going to be something that is this new world that we're going to live in. And that's our hope today is to try to identify a handful of trends. We found five of them that kind of STEM from what church gatherings are going to look like in our hopefully post pandemic world, because it will be different from what it was before. And it will be different from what it's been for the past year or so I think so I'll kick it off here. Um, I think the, the first one, uh, number one is that we should plan. And I think there's a trend that was already in existence, but we should plan for reduced regular attendance.
Speaker 0 00:04:46 Um, I think that this was a, a well-known trend that existed in churches. Well before, uh, March of 2020, when coronavirus shut everything down, it was pretty obvious that there was a trend that was happening that minimized. And I guess there was less and less emphasis and less and less church attendance was actually happening. And we know this, I just know it anecdotally, like as a, as someone who's been in church since I was 12 years old, uh, I know when I was a kid, there was a certain, um, pressure, I guess, or maybe even guilt that was associated with not showing up at church. Uh, and that, um, if it exists at all anymore, it's very small nowadays, right. There was this, there was this trend, uh, that was already happening that, um, having to show up to church every single Sunday, wasn't quite the same thing you didn't have.
Speaker 2 00:05:38 Oh, I hear you. Don't quite hear. Where were you last Sunday? Is everything okay?
Speaker 0 00:05:42 Yeah. I have you back slid or what's what's going on. Right. So, but that's the way that was the way the culture was. It wasn't overt. Nobody, no pastor told their members to, you know, Hey, make sure you pressure people into coming to church, but there was just this unspoken that if, if you weren't throwing up and you weren't on the other side of the country, you were there on Sunday mornings. And there's a lot of reasons why we can dive into some of why those are. But I think that this Corona virus, uh, season what it's shown us is that there's a lot of people like me, who, because of our inability to actually go to a physical church, we haven't been to a physical church in a year. And that maybe that myth that people bought into that if I, I don't go to church every Sunday or if I don't at least go once a, every other week or something like that, then I'll start to fall away from God.
Speaker 0 00:06:32 And then, you know, it's kind of like, I picture it almost like what the serpent told to Eve, like he said like, well, surely you won't die if you eat this Apple. I think we kind of have this idea where it's thinking, surely we won't backslide. If we don't go to church one extra Sunday a month. So I think that there's kind of that parallel there, but I think people have wised up to that that maybe that's not the case now. I I'm the biggest believer that there is when it comes to going to physical church. I think that it makes sense. I think that it is part of a healthy Christian walk. I'm not trying to advocate for this, but I'm just seeing there's the, the writing is on the wall that after a year of people sporadically going to church, we shouldn't maybe expect for them to come flooding back into churches and reverse that trend. If anything, it'll keep moving towards being less and less attended on Sundays. What do you think?
Speaker 2 00:07:21 Yeah, I agree with you. I don't think, I think much differently than you do. I think what we saw and you mentioned this a bit was the, the data that we saw, not just at what we were hearing from churches we work with are seeing in our own churches, but the data we saw pre pandemic was that, Oh, uh, there was an article that talked about a committed member, was someone that showed up about twice a month. Uh, and they were either, you know, part of a small group or they served or both, uh, and that they gave regularly. And if you had someone doing that on a regular basis or a family that was involved to that extent, they were a committed member. And like, you know, back in the, the golden old days, that was someone who was kind of probably like you said, Buddhas backslidden, or didn't have both feet in.
Speaker 2 00:08:08 Uh, but I think we've seen cultural changes, even pre pen demic, whether or not it's just the, uh, lifestyle changes, fast paced, uh, nature of our society, youth sports happening more on weekends and all of those things. And that someone could go to church, uh, to their midweek service or the Saturday night service instead of Sunday and all of these different things changed. And yeah, I think the pandemic has kind of, uh, uh, accelerated that a little bit. And, and, uh, and of course it's, it's a little bit different, but I think you're right. I think that when we even get back to somewhat normalcy, um, that it won't be, I think some people will really hunger for that physical attendance and be back maybe every Sunday. But I don't think that that'll be the case for everyone or maybe most people.
Speaker 0 00:08:57 So, I mean, we talked to a lot of churches that are fully open right now. I haven't yet talked to one that is fully open and back to totally normal attendance, pre pandemic levels. I haven't met that church yet. Um, so it's, I think that, you know, that there's not going to be, I don't think a hard day where we're going to say, Hey, this was the day the pandemic ended. I think it's going to be this gradual move back to, um, to the pandemic ending. And I don't think like that expectation that obviously when, when legally churches could open, we didn't see the flood. We were all hoping to come back to. So I guess my question is though, is what do we do about this? Like, I think that it's one thing to recognize the trend. Uh, I personally am someone who I tend towards the thing, uh, the, uh, the fact that it should be something that maybe we resist a little bit like.
Speaker 0 00:09:48 So I, I think if I was pastoring a church right now, I would continue to teach on the importance of being part of a community and regular attendance. I think that that's something that is biblical and important and not for seeking the gathering together. I think that's still at the same time though. I still think that it probably, it, it helps us to deal with the reality that, you know, that it's, it's just not going to be that way when I was a kid. Like, and I know you didn't grow up going to church when you were a kid. I know that I kind of did later in my, like in my high school days, I did, yeah. We went to church 51, 50, 50 or 51 weeks a year, like, so like, we'd never, didn't go to church. And I just think that that's done that, that, that season is over.
Speaker 0 00:10:29 And so I think that there needs to be a certain level of grace that pastors have for that. And we need to find new ways to help people, um, connect with one another. Even if it isn't always on Sunday mornings, I'm not going to throw out Sunday mornings. I'm not saying that we just say, you know, come as often as I think there should still be kind of a, um, I don't know if obligation is the right word, but, uh, an expectation that Sunday mornings is, is part of what we do as followers of Jesus. But at the same time, when I say Sunday mornings, it could be Saturday nights or Friday nights or whatever you have your main worship gathering. I think an emphasis on gathering is still something that we can't throw out with the bath water in this case.
Speaker 2 00:11:08 That's it? Yeah. I totally agree with you as someone who considers myself maybe a little more old-school when it comes to that. And you made me think of a lot of things when you were saying that. I think that it's, uh, I, I agree that even as we should exercise some grace and I think embrace this change a little bit, and I don't mean to say full, I don't want, I wouldn't say fully embrace it, but know that there's going to be some people that will be continuing to stay virtual. Uh, and, and it's funny though, you made me start thinking of, you know, I believe we are created in the Bible, teaches that we are to fellowship with one another and gather physically, and same reason why it's hard for people to, to not hug each other. Right. We, you know, people, it's a natural thing for us to hug and, and, uh, what you told me and, and not to get off track, but what was the traditional Hawaiian grill?
Speaker 0 00:11:57 It's a kiss. Yeah. We were kiss one another. You give every, every woman that a man, like any kind of man woman interaction takes place. You give a hug with a little, uh, cheek pack that goes on there. And that's just the way that it is. And that's that's Corona virus, city, man.
Speaker 2 00:12:13 No. And I said, I saw where that takes me. So I think it's going to be natural for us to obviously want to continue to gather physically. But, uh, you know, there's going to be a certain segment of people that have, they've gotten used to virtual church and they may stay there. And, and I think you can still as a pastor minister to them and try to encourage them to come to some physical gatherings, but they may prefer to stay that way. And I, and that's a whole other subject, I guess, but, uh, uh, it made me think of, as you know, I'm into physical fitness a bit, and we do a bootcamp workouts. Well, when the pandemic hit, a lot of the bootcamp workouts were that they were canceled all of them for a while. Uh, and they went virtual. So some of these trainers started giving and, and even when they opened back up physically, we saw that some people preferred to stay virtual with their workouts. They said, this just works better for me. And I think he said the same thing will be somewhat, maybe set for some folks when it comes to everything.
Speaker 0 00:13:10 I think I'll wrap up this point with this idea here is that I think there's this line of distinction between what we want as pastors. And then the question we have to, I obviously want to have Sunday mornings be important and having worship gatherings be important, but really what should be important is how can we reach people best? How can we best disciple the people that God has given us to care for? How can we best reach the lost with the gospel? Those are the questions that I think that when we take a step back and maybe just ask that question about Sunday morning services with an open mind, you know, maybe it's a, um, it's a both and approach. I don't think Sunday services go away, but I think if we're serious about discipling and we're serious about winning the lost, I think that we need to put some real effort and thought into how we're going to do that with new models and new wineskins going forward. And yeah, I think that's, that's where we land on this.
Speaker 2 00:14:04 That's good. Well, let me tackle the second point here. And that's a, another shift that I think we're going to see here is multi-site model becomes a micro-site model. I think you and I saw actually here, all, you know, even looking at it about five years ago, I think is where we really started seeing churches really becoming, you know, multi-site churches, you know, buying big buildings and, and, uh, you know, being one church with many locations and those types of things. And, and obviously the pandemic has, uh, it's changed things a little bit to where now I think we're going to see where, uh, well I had one church that put it in a really good way. He said, we see ourselves now. And this was right a couple of months after the pandemic hit. And they were really trying to stay on the cutting edge. They say, we see now as a digital church with a physical extension. Uh, and so I think that that's kind of the mindset and the shift. That's maybe that's one of the reasons why I think we're starting to see maybe a multi-site model, you know, starting to diminish a little bit more. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:15:08 Yeah. So we've lived through a few, uh, models of church heydays. Like there was the seeker sensitive mega church model that you and I lived through. And, uh, you know, before that, um, there were other models that work and then we in transition, I think you're right, probably about five to 10 years ago from a Mo like, uh, a mega church. So one church with, you know, eight services with 6,000 people in each service, or, you know, that model, then it transitioned to this, uh, this, um, multi-site kind of an approach where there's usually one main campus, but there's campuses spread out all over the community, sometimes all over the country, sometimes all over the world. Uh, and those campuses they'd they'd own buildings or they'd meet and locations and be able to do that. And I think that this pandemic would, it, it forced everybody to close down and especially larger churches because just, they are less willing to take risks with liability.
Speaker 0 00:16:00 And some of those kinds of things we we've seen and what that, what we're seeing happening and what we're seeing right now, I think is this rise of this micro-site model. And if I'm being really honest, I have yet to see the micro-site model that really is thriving or really working well. Um, there's several examples of that. I know Francis Chan, he has a network of micro churches where they meet and do video together, and they kind of have just a network effect that they have going on. I know Judah Smith at church home, up in Seattle there, and they have churches that are spread out all over the country where people watch those services together in homes, this micro site strategy. Um, I think what we haven't quite figured out how it's going to work just yet. I think that it's, there's a lot of people that are putting in the work right now, and they're really trailblazing this, and they're kind of testing for poison in the water to see if it's gonna work or not.
Speaker 0 00:16:52 It's hard stuff trying to figure this out, but I think we're, this is the way everything is going. I think we're onto something with this micro-site model. I just don't know that we've really got the model nailed down just yet, but I know that the, the multi-site model as it may not be totally over just yet, but I think its days are numbered, especially when this kind of, this idea of being able to do everything via video, as that continues to rise, that's really becoming more and more obvious that the micro-site model might be something that's big.
Speaker 2 00:17:20 Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Nothing more to add on that. I think it remains to be seen how that shakes out, but I think that's something that's kind of in the works right now. So I think it'll be interesting to see where that ends up.
Speaker 0 00:17:33 Yeah. I think it's going to, um, I think that over the next 10 years, we're really going to see that shift and I think some churches are going to really figure that out. I think we all understand that the, the, we all understood the fundamental flaws with having really large gatherings and being the primary function of a church because that really, uh, it's, you're a face and you're a number, uh, but people don't really get to know you a lot of times. And that's why most of the mega church and multi-site churches really focus on small group ministries, but really turning that small group ministry into. Um, I know we we've heard this terminology, like where they'll say we're a church of small groups that meets that gathers corporately sometimes, but really, I think that's only been in talk. Like I still think that the, the lion's share of what's happening is happening on Sunday morning. And I think we're really gonna turn that corner here this year, or these next few years where it's really going to be what happens in the homes in these micro-sites will be the major function of the church. Um, yeah, again, haven't seen it work great yet, but I can't wait to see how we, we figure that out, I guess, in the church.
Speaker 2 00:18:40 It's good. It's making me think of, uh, the book of acts, right. I mean, we just getting back to what we saw in the early church that, uh, the, the gatherings that were happening in homes and, uh, and then they would of course come together in one accord. So, uh, you know, it might be something that we, uh, really see thrive here.
Speaker 0 00:18:56 Yeah. Can't wait to see how it comes together. So I'll hit number three here. Uh it's and this one is maybe surprising, but buildings make a comeback. I think that, um, I've been putting a lot of thought into this, uh, this idea of church buildings and in my experience, um, there's been a, uh, negativity associated with church buildings over the last 10 to 15 years or so where we've, we've seen that buildings can be great expenses, right? They're, they're huge costs. Uh, and, uh, there've been more and more churches that have started or younger churches that have found it's better for them to do a pack it up kind of a model, or maybe they'll just, they'll, they'll have their stuff in a trailer and move it to, and from church and set up that way. Uh, you and I have planted churches together that did that.
Speaker 0 00:19:45 And I pastored, uh, living in Hawaii, almost all evangelical churches in Hawaii do not own their own buildings. They meet in public schools and other rented facilities. And this may seem crazy because we're coming out of this coronavirus season where these multi-million dollar buildings had zero value to churches for a set of weeks or months where they couldn't meet. They couldn't have their normal gatherings and they were still paying mortgages than they were paying rents. But here's what I found is today churches like mine that meet in a school churches that meet in rented facilities by and large, they are all still not meeting right now because they just cannot get someone that will allow them to meet. They're like, we'll be holding to the school board here in Hawaii, who, until their schools are open or are unwilling to have anybody meeting in their cafeterias or their multi-purpose buildings or their theaters. It just doesn't, uh, it doesn't work for them. So I'm not ready to write off the church building just yet. Um, I think, well, there w this has been kind of a mixed bag that I think that there is a new evidence, in my opinion, that churches, that don't own a building right now are really struggling. And those that do, they totally have the ability to meet and gather and set up their own parameters and have their own safety protocols. It's really been big. So what do you have to add to that?
Speaker 2 00:21:04 Yeah. Matter of fact, I spoke with a church today that they, they of course own their own building and, uh, and they have a nice building. They invested in a while back and they own it now outright. And they were basically just saying that the pandemic has helped them really beef up their, uh, facility and their, their, their, uh, uh, sanctuary as they've updated it with productions, uh, stuff for their live streaming. So in, because meetings have been a little more irregular, they've been able to take time to like, uh, you know, uh, make those types of updates to their building and their production for, for their online, you know, service as well. And I think too, they've, they haven't been, like you said, at the mercy of, uh, you know, like a school board, if it's a school or a community center and whoever owns that.
Speaker 2 00:21:51 And so they have that and they can, they can plan out safety precautions for COVID and for everything else, and just, they have a little bit more control, I would say a little bit more control over, uh, of how they want to do service. So I agree with you. I, I, we've been, I've heard that on the ground level, working with as many pastors as I do and that I talk to on a daily basis that they've been so glad that they've had their own building, uh, and, uh, that they've been able to, to really work on, on that. So, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:22:20 So here's the thing is I don't expect another pandemic. I don't think anybody really, we're all hopeful that this does come to an end and we don't have to shut down churches again and not gather by, by mandate of the government. But at the same time, I think that it's becoming clearer to me at least that there is a we're in the midst of so much of this cancel culture that's happening right now, where people are getting canceled for what they say, what they believe. And there are certain fundamental biblical worldviews that are incompatible with a lot of, um, I don't know, woke, woke theology, I guess, nowadays. And so I think what a lot of churches are going to be up against while I don't expect a pandemic to happen. I think that there could come a time where some of these churches that are using the buildings of, um, public schools or other nonprofit organizations, whatever it may be, um, that they would maybe have to meet some kind of a, a belief standard, or they may require churches to have a certain statement of faith or a certain kind of a, uh, equity clauses, or things that they have to meet in order to rent their buildings.
Speaker 0 00:23:27 So I think that there's really, it's really hard for churches to add a drop of a hat, have to not be meeting anymore. And I think that having a building and owning some of your own property, not even to mention any of the financial benefits of owning physical property, there's lots of things that are good about that. Um, I'm, I'm often when we talk to churches, it's very clear that some of these older mainline churches can be in a really good physical position because they fully own their property. Uh, they've made that investment hundreds of years ago, and they're not having to pay exorbitant rent, especially these churches in big cities, uh, where rents and, uh, real estate costs are through the roof. So there are lots of advantages of that. So I guess the point is don't throw your building out just yet. I think that the buildings heyday is not quite yet over, uh, well, the, the uses have changed, and this has been an interesting season. It's still something that's important.
Speaker 2 00:24:19 Yeah, that's good. Well, I'll tackle the next one. This one's an interesting one, too less emphasis on the office. I guess, one being in the church office. I think that we've, I think even pre pandemic, we saw this was a trend, and we've seen this with companies too, that have gone more virtual. I mean, you know, now basically if you have the internet, you can just do all of your conferencing and you could do all of that from home and, uh, save costs, uh, with, with, you know, your building and everything, and same thing now with the pandemic where obviously it forced people to start, you know, going virtual from home and you can do your meetings online and you don't need everyone all in the office at that, for that meeting all at once, you know, they're physically. And I think that that's going to can only continue.
Speaker 2 00:25:05 I think, you know, we've seen churches that, you know, it's funny when you mentioned the older, more traditional or mainline churches, this whole pandemic we've you and I have seen, we've worked with more of those churches now than ever before that that were forced into getting up to date online and with their web presence. And, and what they were forced to do is to learn zoom and how to meet virtually. And I remember it was so funny. I remember joking with a pastor and, uh, he was, he was saying in the past, you know, before, before COVID hit, you know, I'd have to go to a quarterly board meeting. I, we couldn't get a decision done until everyone met unanimously like four times. And now there's no excuse for my board. I said, we just do a zoom call and we can get the decision done, get the decision done then. So I think that, you know, we're going to start seeing that as a trend to it moving forward. Um, you know, I think churches are going to learn how to adapt. It's going to save them money, uh, you know, as well. And, uh, yeah. So,
Speaker 0 00:26:01 Yeah, so you and I, we haven't been in an office since, for me since 2013, I think you were the same time when you left that office there. So 2013, we, we stopped. We've been virtual employees for the last eight years. That's crazy to think about it. We've been working from home. And, um, uh, I think that I was talking to my wife about this. We were kind of going over some ideas and she was saying that there's a lot of people out there that just don't work well in that environment. And I really think that's something that's a skill that, uh, that churches and employers in general are going to look for is that people are able to, to be very, self-driven like you can't be someone that just relies on someone, you know, riling you up and getting you excited to get your work done.
Speaker 0 00:26:46 Right. You can't be that person and work from home. But I think that it's, it's just a big shift that's happening everywhere. Like, um, so I live in Hawaii again. And so we have people that are coming to Hawaii left and right, right now our real estate prices where other big cities are, um, are really their real estate prices are collapsing or rents are collapsing. Ours are going through the roof because all of these Silicon Valley companies like your Twitters and places they've announced, Hey, you don't have, we won't have you ever have to come back to the office again, like that's become permanent. And so all these people are realizing with their big salaries. Hey, I don't have to live here. I can live wherever I want. Now, why not move to a place like Hawaii where I can do that? I can work from home.
Speaker 0 00:27:27 It just, it makes a lot of sense in that way. So I think that there, I I've, I've seen this happening, uh, and I think companies are really getting the value of that, of giving people that freedom. Uh, and I think more and more, especially younger employees and people that'll work at your church, there'll be more and more ready and desiring to be able to work from home. And I think you hit the, uh, the cost savings on the head too. And I think that there's huge savings and not having to devote portions of your facility to offices and not having to rent separate offices in some churches cases. I think that those things can often become, uh, other really valuable place. We're seeing more and more churches converting offices into preschool facilities and those kinds of things like it's, uh, it, these are usually really great places to do that kind of stuff. So think it's a really big opportunity.
Speaker 2 00:28:16 Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on the head there as well. And just some other things that came to mind too. I think, you know, it saves, you saves on time. It may, I think it may be can, it can make your time management a lot better. So rather than relying upon someone to drive in from their commute to make that early morning meeting and dig round everyone up and do all of that. I mean, I think it'll make people a lot more productive in some ways to, uh, you know, he could still do some online meetings and virtual meetings, but I think people are going to have the time they have during the day they can just spend in real work and not all of these meetings and commutes and everyone having to be on time and everything there. So I think that that's some other stuff that comes to mind when it comes.
Speaker 0 00:29:02 I think it's so obvious right now here too. Cause you guys, uh, here, you're in the middle of the storm of the century right now, the winter storm of the century. And you've been, you've been working all week, you know, the same way that your, your work didn't change really
Speaker 2 00:29:16 The high power, unlike some, yeah. So
Speaker 0 00:29:20 Electricity and internet, you could keep working just fine. Whereas eight years ago, you know, there'd be, you know, you could make some phone calls I guess, but a lot of stuff just gets you, it shuts, shuts down if you don't have this, uh, kind of work from home environment that we live in nowadays. So I think churches really need to embrace that.
Speaker 2 00:29:38 Good. That's good. We'll check on the last one. We'll do a video
Speaker 0 00:29:42 Games, even more prominence. That's one of these trends that we are expecting. Um, D I, in talking with lots of churches, I have yet to meet that church that says, Hey, we invested a lot in our, uh, our video platform. And as soon as this coronavirus season is over, we're going to totally shut it down and sell all of our equipment. That's, that's just not what's going to happen. Right. So I think that everybody kind of innately understands that video is here to stay, uh, streaming. If it's something that it's, it's, maybe not every church is doing it, but it's something that more and more churches will continue to do. Uh, even post pandemic, that video is someone's going to be important. Um, I think that there's lots of repercussions to this because now we live in this world where everybody has access to the best worship and that the best Bible teaching right on their phone, 24 seven, uh, creates a whole new world.
Speaker 0 00:30:39 You remember, uh, 20 years ago, um, when I first started kind of getting into my walk with the Lord 20, maybe 25 years ago, I guess we had this kiosk at the back of our church with this, like this rotating rack that had cassette tapes on it. Right. And you could go and you could borrow a cassette tape from some of the best Bible teaching, uh, teachers in the world, but there was a lot of friction cost with that, right? You had to get the tapes produced. You had to put up this rack. We were a pack it up church. So they, we, I was actually one of the guys that set up the rack after awhile that put this rack up every week with all of our cassette tapes on it and everything. And so this is the shift that we've had, where we went from that to having all of the world's greatest teachers of the Bible and any topic, you can have it right on your finger at your fingertips there.
Speaker 0 00:31:24 So totally weird world that we live in right now. It, um, I think a lot of pastors I think live and maybe an unspoken fear of the fact that my church members listened to better preachers than me all the time. I think that's something that I, if I'm just being honest as someone who's pastored people before, I know that there are people that teach the Bible better than me. There are certainly people that lead worship better than our, our worship team did. And it's, it's a tough world to live in just to know that, like my, I am not the lone voice that people listen to for biblical teaching that go to my church. That there's many other options right now. So, um, that's just another one of those things that it's not something we'll ever be able to fight. That's just the reality of what we live in now. So what do you have to add?
Speaker 2 00:32:12 Yeah, it's also interesting that, uh, that live streaming now, when we think about how much this has skyrocketed since the pandemic, you know, that, and having your sermons online with the video was already effective pre pandemic, you know, this, just this pandemic. And so the reason I mentioned that is that I think that churches we're already seeing the results, good results from having their services online streaming and people would even, you know, as we've seen for years, someone may watch a handful of messages and then finally feel comfortable to visit that church after they've gotten familiar with the pastor sermons and all of that. And I think what if there's been a, there's been several positives out of this whole pandemic, but one with this is that it's, as, this has forced churches to get up to date with their video and production, churches have invested a lot in production and background stuff and just the audio and everything with that stuff to staff with it. And why throw that all out, you know, and especially when it's going to continue to get results, even if it looks different and we're somewhat back, uh, more to, to normalcy, you know, that's going to still get church's great results. And so I think you're exactly right. Uh, now churches have a learn to use video more. So they're, uh, like you said, hired staff for that. That's going to still be relevant and, uh, and it'll be an exciting thing to continue to, to do.
Speaker 0 00:33:35 Yeah. So I, I get, I, I don't think anybody's going to stop. We're going to all keep doing that. I do the moan a little bit, the, the implications of that, and it's, it's a little bit, um, I think it's like we have to think through as a churches, that this, the reality is, is that as video continues to be prominent and it'll only continue what happens on a Sunday morning, as far as teaching and worship times that becomes less and less, that that's not the only place you can get that, like, it becomes by its very nature. And this might sound like it's SAC religious to even say it, but the teaching of the word on Sunday mornings becomes less important. I think in some ways I, and again, I understand what I'm saying. It's, it's just, it's not the only place that can take place anymore.
Speaker 0 00:34:23 I'm not saying that teaching of the word itself isn't important, but you teaching the word on Sunday morning is going to be at least less important than people's eyes because they can get that 24 seven wherever they want on their schedule. And what we need to think about is as video rises as if we really are people that believe that Sunday mornings and worship services are still important, the question is what can you only get there on a Sunday morning? What can only happen in the physical on a Sunday morning? Because the, I mean, I, I would, I would say that music is something that is much better live than it is recorded. I don't know. That's been a struggle for, I think every church out there is that, you know, having people, especially some of those more spirit filled churches, I know you and I are from those backgrounds where people will raise hands and they'll, they'll sing out and they'll clap.
Speaker 0 00:35:13 And they'll, you know, they'll, they'll be kind of in that, in that vein there. I don't know. It just doesn't. I can tell you that it doesn't really happen at my house when we're watching in the living room with the kids. Right. We don't, we don't do the same thing that we're not having that same experience of good with God that we would normally have on a Sunday morning or in a worship service there. But I think even beyond that, I think it's the physical gathering and the way that people can love one another, the way you only can in, in physical presence. I think that's something that we just cannot give up. So as video rises in prominence, that's not a, that's not something that it's worth resisting. We're not going to fight against that, but just be aware that maybe we, we take a look at our Sunday services and our worship services and answer that question of what can we do better than, than they can anywhere else during the week that someone can have a better experience with this on Sunday than any other time in their lives. So what do you have to say to that? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:07 And made me not only think of worship and boy, how many people who are music lovers are longing for concerts live concerts again. Right. So I think that that's one thing. And I think of kids ministry, I think that that's been one of the most and youth, but kids' ministry in particular has been one of the most challenging things during this whole pandemic season because, you know, kids, their attention spans, uh, what you could do over zoom. I, we joked about this on a podcast in the past, like, you know, for maybe, maybe about a month, uh, we had my a fourth grade boy on, uh, you know, for children's church online, through zoom, and then he was, he was tired of it after that. It was, I guess it's just lame dad and, and, uh, he'd hoe and he loves the Lord. He loves worship. But I think if I think of just, you know, that, uh, kid's ministry as well, uh, and other types of ministries on Sunday mornings for kids to gather and have that interaction, it's just that that's something better, better done in person. So I think there's going to still be those great advantages, but even as video rises in prominence.
Speaker 0 00:37:09 Yeah. Yeah. I think that's something that's here to stay and, uh, we just need to be aware of it. And we need to be thinking about what are in a world where video is available to people. What can we do better in person than can be done on video and really focus our, our experiences, our gatherings on making sure we get really great at those things that we can only do when we're in person there. So anything else to close us with today and who else to, to wrap up as we, as we end here? No,
Speaker 2 00:37:38 No, I think that's good. Hopefully helpful to many.
Speaker 0 00:37:40 Yeah, absolutely. I want to, I hope we encourage you guys. It's something that, uh, I know a lot of this as someone who has pastored and I know Ian is, uh, uh, pastored as well. And it's just something that we're, we're right there with you. Uh, we know this has been a really hard season, no matter if you own a building or not, or if you're using video well or not, or whatever your circumstances has been, change is always challenging. And so we want to be an encouragement to you. And I think it's good to be aware of change, uh, whether it's something we want to embrace or not, or how we embrace it is maybe the better question in this case. I think it's something that would just needs to be thought through and put some effort into. So we hope this is an encouragement to you guys. If it has been, it would mean a lot to us. If you would rate, review, subscribe, wherever you watch or listen to this podcast. Thank you so much for being part of the retried family and had you guys next week. Thanks for listening. The reach right podcast.
Speaker 1 00:38:36 We hope this episode will help you reach people the right way, looking for more resources for your church. Check us out online at <inaudible> studios.com. If this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean the world to us. If you would rate, review and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you next week. <inaudible>.
