7 Church Salary and Compensation Tips For 2021

Speaker 0 00:00:00 In today's episode, we unpack seven church salary and compensation tips. You need to know for 2021, we have all heard of the extremes of pastors who are paid way too much or way too little, but how should pastors and church staff be compensated? Join us as we do a deep dive into some of the compensation trends we see in 2021, we hope this conversation helps you reach more people and grow. Speaker 1 00:00:35 You're listening to the right podcast. The show dedicated to helping pastors and church leaders reach people the right way, hosted by me, Thomas Costello, and with me as always is my cohost Ian Hyatt. We're here to help your church see more visitors and grow. Hey guys, welcome to the Speaker 0 00:01:04 Reach right podcast episode number 32. I am your host Thomas Costello. And with me as always is my cohost. Hey Thomas. Hey, how's it going in? Good to chat with you today. Yeah. Good to chat with you. Cold day here in Austin, Texas, Texas weather here, but we have a hot topic to go along with it. Not like the store hot topic, but our own hot topic. We're talking about seven church salary and compensation tips for 2021. Uh, when I first brought this topic idea to you, uh, you thought it might be a little bit on the boring side. It seemed like. So, uh, but I, I don't know. I think that's the joking. I was halfway joking. No, I get it. I, and I, I think to a lot of people, it's just like, if you're not involved with it, but I'll tell you this, that, uh, we we've done a blog. Speaker 0 00:01:52 Most of our audience knows we have a blog that's been going for years now. And our fourth most read post is our ultimate church compensation and salary guide. That's our fourth, most visited posts that we have in our entire catalog there. So there's a lot of interest around this topic and I get it. I think that the thing about, uh, church compensation is that it's one of those things. That's just kind of, nobody can talk about it. Uh, and I think everybody has questions about it. We, we hear this from, uh, church boards and councils all the time about these kinds of questions here. And I just think it's one of those things that's, uh, it's just sticky. It's a sticky conversation to have. So, uh, we kind of put our heads together and we came up with a handful of tips and maybe even trends that we're seeing here in, uh, 2021. Speaker 0 00:02:39 I think that the game has changed when it comes to how we do compensation and some of the conversations around that. And just some advice that we have for, uh, for people here today, right? Yeah, absolutely. No, it is, it is a hot topic and it's not going to be boring. It's not gonna be boring to our listeners. I don't think so. So that's good. Well, I'll kick it off here. Um, I'll start with number one. Uh, the first topic, uh, our first tip is to keep an eye on glass door, glass door. For those of you that don't know is a website, uh, really functions almost like a social network where people can go in and give reviews and salary feedback and other feedback about the company that they work for. Uh, and, um, think of it kind of like a Yelp for employees, basically where you go in and give your company stars and those kinds of things. Now, you and I went in and we were looking at some of our old companies that we worked for. And, uh, yeah, and Speaker 2 00:03:38 It was some interesting, some interesting Speaker 0 00:03:40 Feedback. I never put a review for any of the companies I'd worked for before, but what was that Speaker 2 00:03:45 To, to uni, but, uh, but not so funny to someone who was seriously looking into it, probably. Speaker 0 00:03:50 Yeah. Well, I mean, it's something that I think churches really need to watch out for nowadays because I think churches are always surprised just that they get reviewed at all. Right? So I think most churches now have at least a review on Yelp, most churches of size. At least if you're known in your community, you have reviews on Yelp. We have some posts in our blog about how to, how to manage that and how to handle those kinds of things. Because you do ministry for any length of time, you will have positive reviews and you will have negative reviews that show up on Yelp. Uh, but I would say in general reviews about your church are good because they build search traffic. And it's kind of cool when people search for churches. A lot of times the Yelp review is one of the first few things that come up like real Yelp reviews for churches. Speaker 0 00:04:35 And I know at our church that I pastored in Madison, we saw people that came and I just, it baffles me, but they came because they read a good review on Yelp of our church, which is, it's like, it's a restaurant or a, or some other place that you go to. But anyway, I think that this is really the same thing for your church staff, uh, and, um, glass doors full of all kinds of feedback. Some of it really positive, some of it really negative, but getting, uh, getting good things to be said about your church on there is something that's really important, I would say. Yeah. And I took a look at a handful of the larger churches in our country. Well-known ones that you'd see, and all of them have dozens of reviews from employees and past employees. The challenge is a lot of time. It is, it is, it is past employees and a lot of times past employees or past for a reason, uh, and there's something they didn't see eye to eye about. And it's, I think just every church should really be aware that there is a likelihood now that when you have staff that at some point they'll put some kind of feedback about their relationship with your church into glass door. And I think people need to be aware of that. Anything to add to that Speaker 2 00:05:41 Just a little bit to add on that. I think it would also, it helps if you look into that and you see not only reviews about your own church there, uh, perhaps, or just other churches, I think it'll help you in church leadership to gauge, you know, and it, you know, what you should be paying cause you'll based on the positive and negative feedback, you'll, you'll be able to probably analyze the value of each, maybe staff position. You know, when you, when you hear how that person valued their own role at the church or, or someone else's role, um, I think it, it, it helps you gauge that. So I think it'll, that's how it'll help you kind of know, you know, what she should be paid or someone should be paid, or Speaker 0 00:06:19 I think it is really helpful for people to see that kind of stuff down glass door is challenging and that there's a, it's always anonymous. And so you can take those salary reports with a grain of salt. It may or may not be accurate. And who knows sometimes they'll leave benefits and those kinds of things out of their glass door review. Right. I think with churches as we'll talk about another points here, like it's vary so greatly from church size to church size, from region to region to education level, to all those kinds of things. I'd say there's more variance in church compensation than just about any other employment opportunity that's out there. Especially when a lot of times people do it on a volunteer basis or they, they take part of their salary, just they don't, they take their, they're willing to be underpaid in order to do an act of service and a lot of ways. So a lot of those numbers are hard to make heads or tails of, but I think it is a great place to start. And I think everybody who's involved in church leadership should be aware of Glassdoor and what it says about your church. Speaker 2 00:07:16 Yeah. That's good stuff. Well, I'll tack up a second one and this is to have a smaller, but well paid staff. Um, so, and I, you know, I think that for the larger church, maybe there could be a struggle with this concept, but you know, maybe I don't think there shouldn't be, because I think that what we've seen at least some of the daddy I've seen is when you have a larger staff that is not paid as much, there's more turnover, uh, that takes place. There's, you know, a revolving door often. And, uh, and, and honestly, I think that you just got to think about a lot of factors with this, that if, if someone's better paid, they're going to do a better job typically. And, and so when you have a smaller, you know, more well-paid staff, not only are those people much more bought in and will probably be there for the long term, which is healthy for your church, you know, to have a pastoral staff that is there for the long haul and people love them and get to know them. And they're not having to get to know a new pastor all the time. There's so many benefits, but you can also pay them better. Uh, maybe one negative thought would be well, okay, that's going to make for a lot more work on these individuals, but I don't know. What do you say to that? Speaker 0 00:08:23 Yeah. I mean, that's what you get when you compensate people. Well, is there usually you can compensate only the best and the high performers on your church staff and they can probably get more done with less time. And they're very efficient with their time. Anybody who's run an organization knows that that's how, uh, different people in different, uh, employees will work in different ways. I think the meat of this one here is that just to kind of give some numbers and kind of, uh, an idea of what we're talking about. Let's say a church has a $300,000 a year staffing budget. So their total staff is $300,000 a year of their overall budget. Um, in this case, the proposal would be, it'd probably be better to pay for people. My math is right, four people, $75,000 a year, then paying 10 people, $30,000 a year and you would just, you'd get better quality people and they'd be willing to do the job. Speaker 0 00:09:15 There'd be less turnover. Uh, and that's really the things that those are the things that kill churches is the turnover in staff. We all know we've all seen and probably been part of churches where worship leaders leave or youth pastors leave. And with them out the door go several other families because they have a specific connection to that family there. So that's the idea behind it. I have been guilty of the opposite and I would actually see, I usually see smaller churches being more likely to do this. I think larger churches kind of get it that they need to give decent, uh, full-time compensation to people where they can, I think, smaller churches. And I know I kind of did this is that we tried to spread out some kind of pay, you know, we didn't have that much money. We had maybe a hundred thousand dollars to pay our staff with and we have lots and lots of part-time employees and it was understood that it was part-time and it was actually part-time. I would say sometimes you see those horror stories from churches where they call the job part time, but really they're, you know, they're working 70 hours a week in part-time Speaker 2 00:10:16 And that's not what we're talking about with this, but I think Speaker 0 00:10:19 That makes sense to most church leaders that it's important to make sure that you it's better to have fewer people that are really content and are going to be there for the long haul that having lots of people that will come and go, Speaker 2 00:10:30 And there'll be lots of transition that way. Yeah, that's it. That's it. So nothing much to add on that. I think that was good and well covered. Speaker 0 00:10:36 Awesome. Number three. Uh, it's remember the rule of 75, uh, and let me give a little explanation as to what this is. Uh, you take a look at churches across the entire country. This is a United States based survey, uh, Thom Rainer put this information out a couple of years ago, and the average is one full-time staff person for every 75 people in attendance during your normal worship services. So not membership, but 75 people in average attendance there. And so that is just, it's not, um, it's not necessarily that it's a, the only number that it can be, or that's necessarily wrong if you're at a different number. But if you are, uh, really far outside of that, let's say you have a staff person for every 40 people in church attendance, a full-time staff person, or you have a staff person for every 200 people in attendance. You're pretty far outside of those normal rages on things. And you might want to take a hard look at your staffing setup and how things are going there. You might be overstaffed or understaffed based on that. And I think it's helpful for pastors to know kind of what the average is for that and what other churches are seeing. And it's a nice kind of roundish number at 75 is an easy number to remember of how many people should be on our staff based on the size of our church. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:11:51 It kind of gives you a good way to measure it. It is kind of hard to figure this out. I think for a lot of pastors and staff leaders, just to, you know, to, to think about what's fair and how do we distribute money here and there and whatever. And I, so I think it is a good kind of a, home-based kind of a measurement. And also I think it, I think what also this helps with is not just with compensation, but it helps you kinda know how to serve your people well. Right. Um, so I think that's a good takeaway from this is just that, you know, if you only have one person per every 150 people or something like that, you know, how well, or is everyone being served and accounted for and communicated with. And so, uh, I liked this rule for that reason Speaker 0 00:12:31 Challenges, just, I think that there's a lot of churches that are kind of in that in-between place, right? So we know the average church in the country is something about 75 people. And they usually have an average of one full-time staff person, the lead pastor, usually. Uh, but I think as churches start to grow, where it gets challenging is where you make that leap from, you know, a hundred people to maybe 200 people. And at 200 people, people are starting to expect to have youth pastors and children's pastors and worship pastors. And, you know, it's kind of hard to get those numbers in check. If you have 150 people, it'd be great to have all those staff members. But a lot of times you're going to have to have people doing double duty and covering multiple areas, just because to have four full-time staff, people at a church of 150 puts you way outside of that range. And you're probably going to be in a hard place for some of your budget conversations going forward. So that's what I think we're church has run into the problem the most with this. But I think the rule of 75 is a good rule of thumb just to kind of keep tabs on that for you. Speaker 2 00:13:31 Yeah. It's good stuff. I'll tackle the next one. And this one, uh, it's kind of a fun one, I think in funny a little bit. So this is where it's not, this it's less boring right now. So this is don't vote on compensation. So don't put this to a vote and I think it's kind of funny, we've seen over the years and we've done a bit of logo design here at reach. Right. And I think whenever, uh, I think of logo design is the most subjective thing to so many people. We've seen churches that, you know, we'll take logo comps to, you know, a congregational vote and good luck, or even to a committee. Cause you know, a logo is something so subjective there's artwork, there's, uh, there's emotion involved just like there's emotion involved in how someone, uh, believes someone else should be paid. Right. So I think that, uh, you know, it, it's one of those things that, uh, you know, we were joking about it before, when we were talking about this before the podcast that, you know, if so-and-so did, you know, doesn't like the job that youth pastor is doing well, they're not going to vote for a decent salary for that kid. So, uh, yeah. So I think that, that I think that less leadership involved on these decisions is probably the better way to go. Speaker 0 00:14:40 And I, I think that, uh, I just don't, um, I don't like voting in churches in general. I think that it's, uh, I know that's an anti-American thing to say because we always about how important the right to vote is and all those things as an American, it's weird to say that, but just as a church leader, I think minimizing places where we vote is one of the best things you can do in ministry. And so, uh, I'm thankful to be a part of a denomination that has minimal voting there's very little, well, it was never voted on as a pastor. I was appointed, uh, by a district supervisor. And, um, the only thing we would ever really vote on was if we were going to acquire property or not, and then we sometimes would kind of ratify new church board members or council members. But I, and I know you have a, you told me a funny story about churches in the vote, right? You want to tell that, uh, re recount that old tale. Speaker 2 00:15:33 I hope it's the same thing, but, uh, I was, uh, one of the church, the first church I was a part at, and that I, I came to faith that actually, uh, had a rigorous voting, congregational voting process. And I was in on a lot of these votes and, uh, one of the pastors there, the associate pastor who'd been serving there for a very long time. Uh, he was, uh, he thought he had the seat. So we were up for finding a new senior pastor. Okay. So the associate pastor thought he was a shoe in and, uh, and just had believed that for a long while and the church did have some other candidates in there. And I was looking at the associate pastor and, uh, who I was close to and I was excited for him. He looked excited. He was there in his suit and happy everyone was visiting around him. Speaker 2 00:16:17 And then all of a sudden they make the announcement that they're bringing in someone new from the outside that no one ever even heard of. And I just, and they had him on screen on two big screens. Uh, it's about a 1200 member church. So they had a big production of American idol. It was, it was like that they zoom in on him on, on both of their faces. Uh, and, uh, and so you see one devastated and one, uh, just, uh, you know, overcome with joy. And, uh, I just didn't, I didn't, that's when I was like, they probably shouldn't have gone about it that way. Speaker 0 00:16:49 Yeah. I don't know that. I, I certainly agree that the story, yeah, that was the one I was thinking of too. That's one of my favorites, not favorites. One of the saddest stories I've heard and I don't, it should be so obvious to us in 2021. If you look at our overall landscape in our country that voting doesn't unify people like having to vote, we're not more unified because we vote on things. It actually, in general, it tends to create disunity and it takes a real great leader to, to bring that back together. But back to the compensation side of that, um, I think what happens is that there's just so many varying opinions on this. You'll have people that don't make a lot of money within your church. You'll have people, every church is going to have the whole spectrum and you'll have people that don't make a lot. Speaker 0 00:17:33 And they're going to hear our youth pastor wants to make how much money and then they'll kind of vote accordingly. And then they'll have other people that, that don't like the youth pastor or whatever, the lead pastors agenda, or they don't like the way the worship leader doesn't sing hymns the way that they want to hear hymns. And so they'll dock him $10,000 a year for that. And it's just, it is one of the worst ways you can decide on compensation. Uh, so yeah, I couldn't agree more on that. Uh, voting in general is bad, but on compensation, it's one of the worst things a church can do a church wide vote on. Speaker 2 00:18:06 That's good. That's good. Nothing further to add there. I think we made our point with that one. Speaker 0 00:18:10 Well, let me, I think this next one ties in with that. If you're not going to vote on compensation, uh, for individual people. And I think just in general, it should never be that way. Uh, how do you do that? And I think that's number five it's, you should let pastors determine their own staff's compensation. And so there's a little bit tricky and nuanced on how you would do that because obviously the pastor can just decide, uh, you know, all of the budget, but what I've seen work for churches best is that the board or the council, however, you guys make those decisions, they will decide on an overall staffing budget, right? So they'll decide that, you know, maybe X number of dollars, let's say we were using that example before $300,000 is going to go towards compensation. Then the church council or the board, they will decide what the lead pastors compensation would be. Speaker 0 00:18:58 So let's say they decide that they're going to pay him $75,000 a year. That leaves $225,000 that the lead pastor then gets to decide how his staff is then compensated at that point. And I think this is important because now as someone who's led churches before, I really love and honored our church council that I served under. And they decided those things for me, but it was obvious to me that they didn't know the intricacies of running a church staff day in and day out. And what those roles look like or exactly how many hours or how, how, uh, how much education was required for certain areas that was just outside of their realm of expertise. They were business leaders and great people in the community, but coming up with those individual salaries, that was something that was really challenging. And I think some people would say, well, you know, I don't know that we can trust our pastor to make those kinds of decisions with that without having a council around them. And I would say, you might not have the right pastor if that's the case, if you can't trust them to kind of figure out how to lead a staff, that's kind of an important role in a pastor's life nowadays. So what do you have to add? Speaker 2 00:20:07 Yeah, yeah. What I would add to it, and the reason why I think that this is a good thing to, to let the pastor, um, you know, determine is that he knows his leadership, he, or she should know their leadership, you know, and know, you know, they know what the youth pastor is doing. They're, they're constantly doing the ministry work together. They know the worship pastor and the, the value and the work that they put in day in and day out. I mean, I hope they do, like you said, they, the pastor, the senior pastor should know that and the senior pastor should have a bird's eye view. They're the spiritual leader of the church. And, uh, they're, they know the hands-on work that's going on, they're on the front lines, so to speak, they know who's on the front lines. And so, uh, they have some discernment hopefully over people with some gifts and abilities. Um, so I think that that's also why they're a good candidate to definitely make that decision. Yeah, Speaker 0 00:20:56 Absolutely. I think that's the best way to do it. Um, you know, it's not the only way I do know some churches that have their board vote on every line item like that. I think it's just better when you have people that are involved in the day-to-day work of the church, they're usually the best ones to make some of those kinds of decisions there. So, Speaker 2 00:21:14 Yeah. Good. I'll tap on the next one. So this one's to keep your total compensation budget in check. Um, so we've been kind of covering this a little bit here and there, but, uh, I think w what did we see that a staff budget should be normally the general rule is like 50% of the overall budget. Um, so I think it's a good measurement and barometer to, to kind of keep things balanced, uh, you know, and, and that helps you make the decision when, you know, when you have a certain percentage and you keep to that, it makes the D the mix, the challenge of the decision-making a little bit easier too, I'd say. Speaker 0 00:21:49 Yeah, I think that, that, that's, the number is 50%. Um, I've heard different things over the years, but 50% is kind of that, um, it's an artificial number, but it's a, it's kind of a cap that I think most churches should look at as to how much of their total budget goes towards staffing and compensation. And that includes benefits, packages, and all those kinds of things. What goes towards that? Uh, and I, I think there's a few reasons for that. I think for the most part, I think I, I rarely see churches really driving that number down, right? So usually it's, it's kind of trying to keep it under 50% is the bigger challenge than pushing it up to 50% to get closer on that. And I think the reason for that is that it's always much easier to bring on staff than it is to let staff go. Speaker 0 00:22:37 Uh, and you know, it's just, PE people very are very reluctant to receive pay decreases, but they always are expecting and would like it, we'd like to give them pay increases. We believe that workers are worth their wages and we should be paying them well. And so I think that it tends to be kind of a snowballing thing where, um, that it's, it's really hard to get staffing numbers and budget that budget under control. But I think that that number should be right around 50% for most churches. Now, if you're a church that has a hundred percent paid off building, and all you have is maintenance costs, you don't have a mortgage or rent or something like that that you have to pay. Well, maybe some of that building expense could go towards staff, but the, the caution here is that if you get up to 65, 70, 75% of your budget going towards staffing, little blips in the economy, little changes, they could have a devastating effect of you having to immediately cut staff for that very reason there. So I think it's one of those things that, um, it's just a good general rule of thumb. A lot of times churches are looking for kind of what's normal out there. I would target that 50% number. Yeah, it's good. Well, good. Why don't you Speaker 2 00:23:46 Tackle the last Speaker 0 00:23:46 One? Yeah, we'll do a number seven is look to outsource whenever possible, look to outsource work whenever possible. And I think this is something that is a, uh, it's more of a possibility today than it's ever been before, especially in this kind of late COVID season. We pray this is a late COVID season, not an, a mid COVID, but we're in a late COVID season. Um, everybody is kind of used to working from home, working remotely. We are all doing these things. And if we take a hard look at it, there are a lot of things that churches do or used to maybe think they had to hire staff for that they could probably outsource and get done at a fraction of the cost. Right. So it's something that we've seen, um, for years. I mean, I know you and I are in it. We do a lot of web development. That's kind of our core as web development projects. How often do we talk to churches that are medium to large size, where they have a full-time web developer person on staff making 50, $60,000 a year for work that we could do for, uh, you know, w well, under half of that cost, right. You know, we can do that same kind of work. It's that? That's just one small example. I think that there's many, many areas. Maybe you can give some ideas on how churches can outsource things. Speaker 2 00:25:01 Yeah. Yeah. It gives some ideas there, but you also reminded me of kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. We actually worked with probably the largest church we worked with was a mega sized church with about like 15 different campuses. Um, but one thing that was unique about them that I was impressed with was that they had a very small staff and they outsourced for most of their stuff, but they were still a very thriving, successful church because I think that thought could be well, you know, for outsourcing for everything, then, you know, internally we're not as healthy or, you know, uh, utilizing the gifts and talents of the people that we we have. And we're all for that, right? You, you're supposed to, obviously there's ways for you to, you want to always find ways for people to use their giftings and serve at your church. Speaker 2 00:25:44 But there was something to be said for the wisdom, this church, uh, uh, how they operated it that way. Um, again, they were a smaller, more well-paid staff that were completely bought in, but they also really, you know, they, we were actually, you know, sometimes churches of that size often, they, they can't afford to like pay a designer on staff and they, and a lot of the churches that size do, but they, they looked at it as, Hey, we can have someone do a great job and outsource Ford and not, and put our money into other ministries, Speaker 0 00:26:16 Absolutely. A church this size. This is a church of what, 15, 20,000 people on a typical Sunday between 15 different campuses. And I mean, usually a church that size is having several technical people that are on staff doing a lot of this work. And that's not to say you won't need technical staff in this time. You will still need some of those kinds of people there, but they were able to have a much smaller technical staff, uh, and, and were able to outsource a lot of that work to us. And it saved them. I mean, I would say tens of thousands of dollars, for sure, if not hundreds over the course of that, that project there. So I would say we work with Speaker 2 00:26:52 All different size churches, and this is, this applies to all different size churches, you know, there's benefits, I think for, for, you know, if you're a small church under 50 people to, to this sized church we're talking about, but some of the ideas, like you said of things to outsource, I think could be anything from cleaning, uh, you know, even, you know, cleaning, uh, you know, we've seen traditionally a lot of the older, more traditional churches have a church groundskeeper groundsman or keeper and, uh, or custodians. And it's not to say that that's not a good staff position for your church. There's churches that have just big exquisite buildings and properties that maybe they do need someone full-time for. But if you don't have to have, that could be one, uh, web design, of course. And it's like you said earlier, and not paying someone 60 to 80,000 a year to just be your web designer. Like you could get that done for a fraction of the cost out there, SEO. Um, you know, that's become a big thing, search engine marketing and, uh, your, your visibility and how you rank with the Google churches now are more aware of, of how big of a deal that is with, uh, with the amount of people searching. So there's a lot of great companies out there that can help you accomplish that. Uh, and then of course, for even, you know, creative stuff, uh, production stuff. So anything else you were thinking about Speaker 0 00:28:09 Creative work? I think there's lots of people that are out there to do, um, you know, circle graphic design, or event graphic design, a lot of the creative elements. Those are things that are easily done remotely now. And someone that isn't necessarily a part of your church. Uh, I think a huge opportunity is bookkeeping. That's always been a big expense for churches is, and I know a lot of bookkeepers maybe that listen to this podcast and they're saying, Oh, no, don't say that, but I'm not sharing this one with my pastor no way. So, but I think that, um, you know, there there's lots to be that can be done virtually in those areas now. So bookkeeping, accounting, some of those kinds of things that churches traditionally had at least a part-time staff person doing some of that work that can be outsourced at a fraction of the cost. Speaker 0 00:28:54 Um, there really are so many ways nowadays that that churches can do these kinds of things. So, yeah, I think looking to outsource wherever possible, um, as long as it saves you money. And I think what it does a lot of times is it helps prevent you from having to have some of those, those things we were talking about before, where you pay you underpay someone because it needs to get done. Like I said, churches do this famously with their custodians or their maintenance people where it's almost like they, um, it's someone who is wanting to do it as an act of service. And that's great. We want to celebrate those kinds of things. But, you know, at some point, those things do tend to get into tough relationships and we want to make sure we do our best to pay people well, when we can, again, small staff paid well over big staff paid poorly. Speaker 0 00:29:38 That's really an important rule of thumb. I think. So anything add as we kind of close out this conversation today in not that I was going to be boring, it ended up being fun. Yeah. That's it. That's it who doesn't love talking about money, right? That's right. Right. Most mentioned topic in the Bible almost. That's what they say. That's what I'm told. There you go. Absolutely. No good stuff. So that's good. Yeah. Awesome. Well, we've enjoyed having this conversation. If this is Ben beneficial to you, we would love it. If you would rate, review, subscribe, wherever you get this podcast, whether you're watching or listening, that doesn't mean the world to us. So thanks for listening. And we'll catch you guys next week. Speaker 1 00:30:20 Thanks for listening to the reach right podcast. We hope this episode will help you reach people the right way, looking for more resources for your church. Check us out online at <inaudible> studios.com. If this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean the world to us. If you would rate, review and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you next week. Yes, <inaudible>.