Five Ways Pastors Can Get The Most Out Of The Sabbath

Speaker 0 00:00:00 In today's episode, we unpack five ways. Pastors can get the most out of their Sabbath. We live in a 24 seven world where real rest is hard to come by. And for many pastors it's nearly impossible, but the fourth commandment is not the same as just having a day off, join us as we discuss how church leaders can reclaim what God intended for the Sabbath. We hope this conversation helps you reach more people and grow Speaker 1 00:00:36 You listening to the reach, right podcast, the show dedicated to helping pastors and church leaders reach people the right way, hosted by me, Thomas Costello. And with me as always is my cohost Ian Hyatt. We're here to help your church see more visitors and grow well. Hey guys, Speaker 0 00:01:04 Welcome to the reach right podcast episode number 19. I am your host Thomas Costello. And with me as always is my cohost Ian Hyatt. What's up Thomas. Hey, what's up Ian? Uh, welcome to episode dream. That's it. That's it live in the 2020 dream. That's it. So we, uh, have a good topic today. We're going to be talking about five ways. Pastors can get the most out of the Sabbath. I think a really important topic for 2020, especially it's always been important. It was important when, uh, when Moses wrote down the fourth commandment, I think it was important that we keep the Sabbath. Holy, I think more important now than ever. I would say, what do you think? Uh, I think he has definitely now more than ever. A lot of people, not just pastors, but specifically we'll be talking of course, about pastors, but our run ragged this year. Speaker 0 00:01:55 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that it's, it's really important because it is something that in my experience, most pastors know how to teach, but a lot of pastors myself included at times, I didn't know how to practice, uh, and practicing what we preach is really important. And I think that it is, it's a hard thing to do. I think that there's lots of things that make the Sabbath extra hard for people that lead in churches to keep, um, you know, there's all kinds of reasons for that. And I think it's just an important conversation because we live in this 24, seven world, uh, where, uh, being called to be a 24, six kind of person is really something that's challenging. And I think that there is huge blessing for those of us that are able to get that right. Uh, and really get in this habit. Tell me about you and your family. Are you guys big, big Sabbath keepers there? You know, it's something that we've gotten a little away from and as you know, you know, right now, um, you know, just to be totally transparent, uh, right now, as you know, I'm not a licensed pastor, been licensed pastor and Dell were Speaker 2 00:03:00 Still of course active in ministry. And I definitely am active in leadership at my church and heavily involved, but, uh, but you know, even as a pastor before, um, and now not being one, it was something that, you know, I don't think I did a good job of, and, and I think it's, it it's, it will be discussing, you know, that may be some passengers that think they are taking time off. That really aren't. Um, but, uh, yeah, it's a good refresher for me. And it's something that I think, especially as you mentioned, this is a good topic for 2020, we've gone all out of rhythm this year. Um, so with, with, with everything with church life and everything, and I think a lot of people are in that boat. So Speaker 0 00:03:42 That's a good way to put it. I think the rhythm of life. And I think what, what Sabbath does is it helps everybody. It's not, it's obviously not just for church leaders, everybody, God calls everybody and invites everybody. And I think everybody would be blessed by practicing the Sabbath, but I think it, it establishes a rhythm for our lives that is so important. Uh, just the, in this 24 seven world being a 24, six kind of person is a different kind of rhythm. But I think it's one that God blesses. I know for me to stay answer the question I asked you a Sabbath was something that I probably thought that I did well, uh, up until a few years ago until I really dug in, we actually wound up teaching a series at our church on this, and I was deeply convicted as I was teaching it. Speaker 0 00:04:27 I said, I can't teach this as I'm not doing it. So it was something that we really had to put in practice. And I must say that for us, really making some changes and carving out a real 24 hour period that each and every week we know is sacred set apart and special. I think it was something that was really good for me. It was good for my wife. It was good for my kids, uh, and, uh, really, uh, something that I think every pastor should, should dig into pray about. And I think it'll bless your life if you do it. So, yeah, so let's dig in. We have five ways. I think that pastors can really get the most out of the Sabbath. Uh, the first one I'll go ahead and share is that this seems so obvious. The first one is don't work, don't work on the Sabbath. Speaker 0 00:05:11 Uh, I know that so many pastors that, uh, when we, we talk about Sabbath, we think of it as being the same thing as just having a day off. Uh, it's it really, the fourth commandment is not thou shalt take a day off. Yeah. The fourth commandment is that you'll should remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy on those other days, you work on these, you on this one, you don't, that's what the fourth, fourth commandment is all about. And I think so many church leaders, what we wind up doing is we wind up just thinking of the Sabbath as the same thing as having a day off from work. And what it turns into is it's a, it's a catch all day. It's the work for six days. And on the seventh day, you mow your lawn, kind of get those house projects done that you've been meaning to get to doing a, you do all the, you make those phone calls that you, you know, you've been dreading making, having to, to call up the cable company and finally switch your plan. Uh, and everybody knows that in life, there is a full days worth of stuff that has to get done outside of your work. So you hear that from pastors, do you find that's the same? I, Speaker 2 00:06:17 I do. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, having worked with pastors for years, and I know you, you have as well, but I, I don't necessarily dig into the topic of, of the Sabbath with pastors in what we do here at reach. Right. And what we consult with pastors on, however, it does come out into conversations, you know, it comes out when I get to know a pastor and I get to kind of hear they'll, they'll open up and share kind of what their week looks like or what they're dealing with right now at the church. That's stressful because we're kind of that I'm kind of that outside ear to lend to a pastor that they often kind of don't have sometimes internally at their church or, or even with their family. So I, I ended up hearing some things that I'm actually very surprised to hear about. And, and so, yeah, I would agree. I think that I find a lot of pastors that that may be, and I know here, pastor, Hey, I'm not, I'm not going to talk on Monday or Friday. That's my day off. Or, you know, and rarely will they say that's my Sabbath though. Speaker 0 00:07:19 Yeah. Well, I find sometimes people don't say that because, Speaker 2 00:07:21 Because it's kind of a weird thing to just always say, Speaker 0 00:07:24 Say that before, because there is a distinction between day off in Sabbath. Right. I think that's important. But I, I remember saying that to people before and they say, Oh, you're so spiritual because you take a Sabbath, not a day off, but I really think it's just, it's something that I've had to make a distinction. Um, and I think that for pastors, a lot of times what they'll wind up doing is they'll have one day where they don't schedule things that are work-related. But yeah, everybody knows that administry, stuff's going to come up anyway. Now people get sick and need their pastor and people, uh, they, uh, need to get married on your day off a lot of times. And there's all kinds of things that have to happen. Uh, people, uh, just need you when you're in ministry. And it's so important that you put in safeguards that really carve out this time that say that, uh, I don't do things like this. I don't do anything except for things that are restful on my Sabbath day. I think that's something that's really vital. So don't worry. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Speaker 2 00:08:24 Gonna say I wanted to interject there. So whenever I used to do real estate part-time and I started learning from other realtors in the real estate industry, there was one guy. I was very impressed with this and he was a family man. He was in his thirties and he was a family man. And on his voicemail, he made it a point that this is, these are the hours that he would respond to calls and requests. And on Sunday he don't expect to hear from, and he set that expectation with his clients. And I was very impressed with that, because at this time, you know, I had had, my kids were a bit younger and we were still growing our family and everything. And I was just like, you know, if I do this and I granted I never went into it. Full-time that was not my calling. And they're thankful we're doing what we're doing, hearing here now at reach. Right. But, but if I were to go full-time, I was like, I'm going to do what this guy did, because in a way he was keeping a, keeping a Sabbath like schedule. Speaker 0 00:09:24 Yeah. So that's funny you say that. Cause I, I think I would assume in the real estate industry, like churches, Sundays are kind of important days, right? And real estate Sunday is a, it's a big money making day. And in church, it's our, it's our super bowl day. Right? It's our big day, every, every week is Sunday for the most part. So I imagine it costs, here's a, another example. Um, BNH photo, uh, they're uh, one of the biggest providers of camera equipment and those kinds of things I bought the camera I'm talking into right now at BNH. And, uh, they are a Jewish owned company in New York. And if you look at their website Friday at sunset, through Saturday at sunset, their website says like, you can't buy anything. Like you actually can't get on their website and make a purchase because they're practicing the Sabbath and they just don't do that. So there are people that are bold enough to go out there and actually say, I'm not going to do business on these now I'm not a legalist. Right. Speaker 2 00:10:29 Great example. They're shut down. I mean, they could, you know, McDonald's is probably happy that they're closed on Sunday. Speaker 0 00:10:35 Yeah, that's exactly right. But that's, that's a good chunk. That's what 17 or 16% of their income that they're just giving away because they're not open on Sundays and even more profit, I would say. So, uh, the, the moral, I think here is that pastors, I think for your own sanity, I know that there's so many temptations of things to come up, but be intentional about this for your own mental health, uh, to carve out this day. And I know you take a day off, but actually take one where you don't work. I think it's really vital, especially in 2020. I think we really need to get ahold of that. So Speaker 2 00:11:11 I don't think I fully, I don't think I fully answered your first question to me when you said that. So it's kind of funny now you're, you're making it come to memory, but I will have pastors telling me that, Oh, Friday's my day off. So that's a great time for me to set an appointment with you. Right. So, so I think case in point, I, you know, it's hard for me to say, well, no, I won't talk to you pastor, cause you need a Sabbath. But at the same time, I'm thinking in the back of my mind, why don't you go take your wife out or something, Speaker 0 00:11:43 Let it be known that if it is your day off, the website can wait. You know, the, the Google grant can wait, we'll talk to you later. So that's it. That's exactly it. So why don't you hit two for us here? Yeah. Speaker 2 00:11:54 It's choose the right day. You know, we were kind of talking about, you know, whether or not it's a Friday or Monday. I know having worked with churches as long as I have, you know, it seems like it's always been either Friday or Monday is the pastor's day off. Um, you know, and, and that, I guess is kind of natural when you look at the church calendar and what what's happening on Sunday. However, it may not be that day. Uh, it could be another day, but I think that you do have to be strategic and plan. What's the Dave Ramsey saying if you don't plan to when you plan to fail. Uh, and so you gotta, you gotta plan that right day to where you think, okay, what can I put in place? What's the best day that I can not work? Like you just said, not do any work and kind of Institute some of these things. Speaker 0 00:12:42 Yeah, that's good. Uh, so for me in my time when I was pastoring a church, I was always a Monday day off kind of guy. Uh, and what I would do, I was by vocational. You know, we were starting retreat several years ago and, uh, building this business up. And so I was pastoring a church and we were doing this. And, uh, I, what I would do is I would carve out a 24 hour period. So for me, it was Sunday afternoon. So church would end, uh, we were very intentional about not doing Sunday night events at the church. Uh, that was never something that we really did Sunday night services. So Sunday night through Monday midday, that was my, my Sabbath. And we would carve that out. Uh, and it was really important that we got the right the right day, because here's something that is, I want to be really clear. Speaker 0 00:13:32 I think that there, I've talked to some pastors that do this Sunday. Can't be your day off, unless you're a seventh day Adventist church Sunday cannot be your day off. Right. So I don't try to do that because Lord knows you cannot really rest on the day when you put out so much effort. Preaching is a, an enormous task weekend and week out. So Sunday is just not gonna work for you. Uh, I've seen cases for Friday being a good day, but in my experience, Friday was hard because I, I usually was trying to catch up and get my sermon finished and doing some of those kinds of things, getting PowerPoints done and that kind of stuff, there was all important on Fridays. I had someone counsel me once that said, Hey, you should consider something more in the middle of the week. I had a pastor friend that told me that Tuesday's worked really well for him, because what he found is that on Mondays, that was already like a total decompression day. Speaker 0 00:14:24 And it was hard to rest on Mondays because you're always thinking about, yeah, did I say that thing right? Or emails that tend to come in from people who emails from people that say, Hey, I didn't really like what you said, this or that kind of feedback that usually happens on Mondays. There's lots to be done right after Sunday and your visitor followup and those kinds of things. So there's a case that could be made. But I think the main point is you need to choose the day that works best and that it should be a consistent day. Uh, so that's why I think Saturdays are hard for a lot of pastors is because you're probably doing some late prep. And then there's always something happening on Saturdays. You have church events and weddings and all those kinds of things happen on weekends. A lot of times. Speaker 0 00:15:06 They're so, um, yeah, I think it's important that you, you choose a day and that as a day, you actually can carve out and that you can be consistent with that day, that, you know, almost all the time, then again, we're not legalists about this. If, if something happens, you know, that it happens. But if, if you, if you find that most of the time your Sabbath gets interrupted, it probably isn't a good day for you to choose for your Sabbath. There. You need to look at it again. It's a good point. Good point. Yeah. That's good. Let me hit number three. Um, and that is really important. Number three is do something different from your day to day activities on your Sabbath. Here's what I learned is that if you have the kind of life where you find that your, your ministry, it keeps you in the office all the time. Speaker 0 00:15:51 So your nine to five is you're mostly in the office. Maybe you have a couple of lunch meetings and things, but most of it is indoors sitting at a desk, typing, reading, thinking your Sabbath probably ought to be something different. It probably probably ought to be going outside and riding your bike or getting outside into the, into some sun and trying to find some ways to get exercise and do something that's a little bit different from your day to day. If you find that ministry is something that gets you outside all the time, if, uh, for some, you know, you're, you're doing house calls all the time, or you're doing meetings all day and you're doing stuff outside, well, then it might make sense to do something the opposite where you just sit around and crash and watch movies or play video games and be with your family indoors for a lot of your time there. So it's just something that's different. It takes you out of the normal rhythm of your life there. So that's kind of my thought, what are you thinking? Speaker 2 00:16:44 Yeah. And I think that's great because I mean, how healthy is it to anyway, even if we weren't talking about doing this on the Sabbath, that's just a healthy human action to take is to break up the monotony, do something different, you know, find a new hobby, you know, do and doing something out of the norm of your normal routine. It also is restful because it's, it's, it's not what you're used to in the flow of your busy work week as a pastor or by vocational pastor or whatever it is. So, no, I love it. I think in it, and the more that you get creative and you start doing new things when we find, I don't know about you, but whenever I find something kind of new to do that, I enjoy, man. It's really exciting to me. And it's something for me to add into my, my life. And I'm like, why didn't I do this sooner? You know, why didn't I do this sooner? And so I think that that would really be an encouraging and helpful thing for, Speaker 0 00:17:41 So I think, especially in this pandemic season where we are all indoors a little bit more, I think that it probably, for most of our listeners getting outside and doing that, like doing life outside, getting into nature, getting exercise is probably the right way to spend your Sabbath for most of our listeners. I know for me and my family, it's, you know, I live in a place where we can do this, but it's beach and surfing, you know, that's what we do. Like, so it's our, our Sabbath is we will spend hours and hours at the beach playing in the water, surfing with the kids, soaking up sun, uh, being with people that we love and friends and family, uh, that's something that we really do, but you know, I, I, it's not the same for everybody. Obviously not everybody can, can be surfing, uh, on the Sabbath, but that's what we do here in Hawaii, within Rome. Right, Speaker 2 00:18:28 Right. That's right. And how popular has it become in 2020 to get a bike or start exercising outside? I can't tell you how many people I see outside my home office window, riding bikes. I just had someone in the neighborhood tell me that they found the last bike at the sports sporting goods store. So it's a, it's a, it's a good thing. It's a good thing. But this has been a good year to try to do some of those new things out in nature, for sure. Speaker 0 00:18:55 Budget number four for Speaker 2 00:18:56 Us, number four. And I think most pastors that hear this point, they're going to be like, hallelujah, amen. But it's, it's eat well. And, and, and, and we're not necessarily talking about eating healthy, even though we should all try to eat more healthy, but I'm the type of guy that I, I do value, uh, fitness. And, you know, I do try to watch what I eat, but I'm also one of those guys that I'm like, realistically, you gotta have a day or two, when you eat, you know, you eat something, go get the double meat cheeseburger, or whatever, live a little bit, you know, it's like the people that try to follow the strictest diets, they never stay on them. Right. Because they don't have that cheat day or something like that. So that's the first thing that comes to mind to me, but eating it's a blessing, right? Speaker 2 00:19:41 How much does the Bible talk about food as being a blessing and eat, drink, and be Merry for tomorrow, we'll die. And in talking about, uh, one of the it's coming to mind in, uh, in, in Ecclesiastes, we switch a lot of times. The first thing people think about is that it's such a grim depressing, because it's talking about how just, you know, uh, we know nothing and everything's like grasping at the wind. But the one thing I remember from that book is it talks a lot about that. There's nothing better for Amanda to live out their days and eat and eat well. There's a part in the passage of scripture there. So I think it's a good thing definitely on the Sabbath. Speaker 0 00:20:18 Yeah. I, I am totally with you. Um, I think cheat day is a good way to put it. I think so, uh, your, your Sabbath day in my experience, it's great when that is the day that you really, uh, that you really kind of is the day you let yourself go with that kind of stuff a little bit. If you're, if you're a rigorous diet kind of person that I think that's really the right way to do it. And I think it's easiest to see in my kids. Like, so we, we have some strong rules on drinking, sweet and sodas and that kind of stuff in our house. But Sunday is that day. We let it go, right? Like, so that we let the kids have that's. So today they kind of know that that's, that's the day they get to have sodas and they already know, like, I don't have to remind them, you know, on, on, so today I know that they are, when it comes time for dinner, that they're going to have that soda already in their hands. Speaker 0 00:21:07 They know what day it is. And it's, it's almost like a Pavlov's dogs kind of a thing where as Sabbath builds up, they think of it and they start to salivate because it's going to be that, that fun day, where they get to have soda. And it's the day, I'm a big barbecue smoking kind of guy. So I'll get the Kamado fired up and start grilling doing some of those kinds of things or doing a long smoke and knowing that's kind of our, our fun day, uh, to, to kind of have a big feast and those kinds of things. I know exactly when we, when we lived, uh, in Wisconsin, uh, the, the fast food King in Wisconsin. Do you know what it is? Even with the fast food? Yeah. Because you've talked about him so much. Culver's Culver's is the place right. Neck of the woods, it's water burger. Speaker 0 00:21:52 That's what it is. I know in California, it's in and out. So wherever you are listening to this insert your, your fast food or your, your burger place of choice, but up there, Sundays was Culver's day for us. A lot of times, if we didn't have time to make a big meal, we would go and everybody would get a burger. And it was kind of a fun night. And it was that one and a cheat day that we had in our thanks. So I just thought it was so healthy and there is, we don't worship food. I know I'm someone that struggles with that. And sometimes God, my God can become my stomach as scripture says, but it's, it's something that I think that God made food for, for a reason. He made us like it and crave it for a reason. I think it's something to kind of enjoy. Speaker 0 00:22:32 I think our Jewish brothers and sisters, they get that. Uh, and I think it's something that in the, in the church we can really embrace there. So eating well is important. I'm with you. Yeah. Number five. I'll, I'll wrap up with this one here. It's that we need to make sure that you make time for family. And I think that this is something that I have struggled with as we adopted Sabbath, I said, all right, cool. So I, my kids would make fun of me because on Sabbath, when I took off on Sunday afternoons, I had all my football, football games were all recorded, ready to go. And I would move my chair into what my family lovingly called Sabbath position. And I would get it like right in front of my, my big dad chair, right in front of the TV and get my, uh, you know, get the football, uh, going on there. Speaker 0 00:23:18 And in part that was really good. And there's a place for that, but I think it's important that you really enjoy your wife. You enjoy your kids. Um, I've heard people teach on this and this might seem strange for this conversation, but you should probably have sex on the Sabbath. That's good. It's a good thing to amen and say, man, it says God, something wish to absolutely. It's a good thing. And so all, all the male pastors out there are saying amen to that, but it's, hopefully I think that it's something that you, that you really need to carve out and make sure that you make time for intimacy with your wife, uh, spending time with your kids, enjoying their presence, reading together, watching a movie together as a family, digging in and really just being with your family. Um, you know, I think that something that, uh, not to be a legalist about it, but I think just really enjoying those things, it's important on that day that you're, you get to spend time with them. What do you think? Speaker 2 00:24:16 Yeah. And how much do we hear about, you know, these pastors that are falling and having affairs or, and, you know, hear about these, of course, with some of the larger mega sized churches or the, you know, the bigger names, pastor names out there, but it happens with churches that are smaller as well, and not just affairs, just marriages that are bad. You know, some of the worst, you know, there's plenty of data that some of the worst marital relationships are between the pastor and his wife. And I think a lot of that is because a pastor doesn't take the time to have a Sabbath with his wife and with his kids and his family. And then, or when you hear those jokes about, Oh yeah, it's a PK kid. Watch out for them. They're the worst. I mean, and these are really sad things that should not be obviously when we look at things biblically and how we need to be and how we need to be as believers in Christ followers, a pastor's family should be, it should be very, an honorable thing, noble Holy thing. Speaker 2 00:25:16 And I think a lot of times, you know, when you have that pastor, that's the one man gang and they're taking, they're taking a phone call, you know, from every member that, that wants their time and here the wife and the kids are being abandoned. So I think definitely, and bringing it back to, so if you're busy with, as all pastors will be with their members and everything else that they have going on in leadership, having that one day where it's sacred and, and, you know, you don't take that call from that member or you'd go do that extra little thing. It's going to strengthen your family. It's going to make your marriage better and all of that. So that's been a frustrating thing to see over the years. And, and, and often it does tie back to not having a Sabbath, not taking that time with your family. So I'm glad you brought that. Speaker 0 00:26:02 That's a good point for me, with my family, what I had to do to really make this a point was I had to turn off my phone. Uh, so it's something that, uh, you know, we all get so many notifications on our phone and everything has this, this air of urgency about it. And really it's a distraction for me on the Sabbath, from the things that mattered most. Uh, so to really emphasize like, it's, I know you and I sometimes we'll send a joking texts about the Cowboys and how pathetic they are, that kind of stuff. But that's a whole podcast outside of, outside of that, I turn off all my notifications and, uh, we really, uh, I try to dig in to just be with my family on that day, really important to me. That's why I think most people will find that I'm pretty hard to get ahold of on Sabbath day for me here. Speaker 0 00:26:49 So it's, uh, it's something that's really, it's really important, but I want to just end with this too, just to encourage pastors. I know I've been at a place where I looked at my life. I looked at my busy-ness as a bi-vocational pastor and said, you know, get real, how am I going to actually do this? And I would think things like I cannot afford to give away a day in that way. Like, I, I can, I have too much on my plate too much to do. Uh, I just want to encourage you is that you can't afford not to get something that you really do need to do. If you want to have a whole relationship with the Lord and a whole relationship with your family and your, your kids, and you want to have, uh, a whole mental health situation. I think it's so important that you really make the time to do this. So an encouragement to you, pastors, out there, you can do this. You can take a more than a day off. You can take a real Sabbath, it will cost you a lot to do it. Uh, but the benefits of this I think will be so huge for you going forward. So I just want to encourage you with that. I hope that's been a blessing. Do you anything to add as we close up here, Speaker 2 00:27:55 One more thing to chime in when I talked about that, uh, that realtor, that, uh, that took Sundays off, and this was a very successful realtor. Uh, and so, uh, you know, he had his, and I bet he was successful because he took that day off and it made him fresh to deal with his clients. And if he was good at scheduling his calendar every other day of the week, or make the open house, another take people to go showings. And if you look at Chick-fil-A, they're not hurting. Uh, obviously, uh, and, and I think here's the thing I would end with if the Lord said to honor it and do it, uh, I would think that provision and blessing would come out of it. It's just like the tide has the sacrifice, uh, or it's, you know, it's in part that financially, but the reward is promised. And I think that same thing I've seen as I have done a good job at keeping the Sabbath and I've struggled at times, but whenever I do, I'm always fresher. I've seen the Lord bless it. So that I would say, I would want to encourage pastors with too, even though, like you said, it's, it's gonna, it's gonna take some sacrifice, you know, it's gonna be worth it. Yep, Speaker 0 00:29:01 Yup. Yep. We love you guys. Uh, you pastors out there that listen to this, you, uh, you're the reason why we do it and we hope this has been an encouragement to you. Uh, thanks again to our audience. And for those of you that do listen to this podcast weekend and week out, or watch us on YouTube or Facebook, uh, if you, if this has been a benefit to you, we'd love it. If you would rate, review, subscribe, uh, and, uh, if we, if we can do anything, you have any comments for us. Please do leave those in the notes there below. We'd love to get your feedback on what it means to you and, uh, give us future show ideas of things you're looking to hear about. So that's it for this week. Uh, if we don't hear from you first, we'll catch you next week. See you guys. Speaker 1 00:29:42 Thanks for listening to the reach right podcast. We hope this episode will help you reach people the right way, looking for more resources for your church. Check us out online at reach, right studios.com. If this episode has been helpful to you, it would mean the world to us. If you would rate, review and subscribe on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you next time. <inaudible>.