Speaker 0 00:00:00 Just 18 months ago, almost nobody had ever heard of zoom, but now churches use it all over to help people stay connected. But using zoom for small groups is not the same as doing small groups in person. In today's episode, we walked through some of the tips that you can use to have more productive, small group meetings on zoom. We hope this conversation helps you reach more people and grow. This is the reach right podcast.
Speaker 0 00:00:37 You're listening to the read-write podcast. The show dedicated to helping pastors and church leaders reach people the right way, hosted by me, Thomas Costello. And with me as always is my cohost Ian Hyatt. We're here to help your church see more visitors and grow.
Speaker 2 00:00:59 I'm ready to get <inaudible>.
Speaker 0 00:01:05 Hey guys, welcome to the retrial podcast episode number 72. I am your host Thomas Costello. And with me as always is my cohost
Speaker 3 00:01:14 Ian Hyatt. What's up Thomas.
Speaker 0 00:01:15 Hey, not too much in excited for our conversation here today. We are going to be talking about how to host better church, small groups on zoom. Uh, this is a important topic. I think I know that your initial reaction is gosh, why? And the reason is you live in Texas and I live in Hawaii and when that's the case, we're in totally different worlds. It seems like here at my church, most of our meetings are still happening on zoom, uh, because we still haven't had any kind of a, a church gathering. We've had small ones, but we haven't had a regular Sunday gathering in 18 months. Uh, so I think, um, do you guys have any meetings on zoom at your church or do you know what's what's happening with that?
Speaker 3 00:02:01 I don't think so. Uh, I really don't, uh, there might be one or two of course, you know, part of a very large church and I'm not over the small groups and don't track all of the groups or anything. That's not my role there, but, uh, I will tell you from what I understand, uh, I, I don't, I, I hope not, but, uh, but I don't think so. Maybe
Speaker 0 00:02:24 What do you hope it's not too here? Here's the thing is that I think this is an important conversation for the retried family here and everybody that's watching, because I think most churches are having in-person services in person, small groups. Uh, that being said, I think there are people in most churches that still don't feel comfortable in group settings and gatherings. And I dunno, maybe they're just introverts, but you know, maybe there are people that are, have legitimate reasons for that, or they have health concerns. So in my experience, I know our church is an anomaly in that most of our groups are almost all of our groups are on zoom, but I think most churches around the country at least good size ones have some online options. And you're probably smart, I think to have some online options again, I'll say this ahead of time, is that you and I know from our conversations.
Speaker 0 00:03:14 And so the retried family knows that we, as a general general rule and speaking, generally we are for in-person gatherings. We think the in-person gathering is not done yet. There is value to corporate worship to being together, to praying together. And I personally believe that zoom groups don't fulfill all the requirements of not forsaking, the gathering of the saints that we're called to do in scripture. Uh, we're called to meet together regularly. I feel like maybe zoom doesn't quite get that, at least just yet. I expected in the future. We're going to becoming more and more digital. Uh, but I think that this is kind of one of those things that, um, a lot of churches out there are doing zoom, small groups. And so we thought we'd put together a guide as someone who's been going to them for months and months, uh, that, um, you know, maybe we picked up some things along the way that would help you do better zoom, small group meetings. So I'm gonna have that no more.
Speaker 3 00:04:10 Yeah. And you're more of an expert probably than anyone with as long, as long as your state has been shut down. So, but, uh, I think the most, so
Speaker 0 00:04:20 I think I could say that, uh, at retry, you know, we have been operating not necessarily on zoom, but we've been operating on zoom and slack. And I don't know what we started on. We were on Skype, I think when we started doing video conferencing and those kinds of things. So we've been doing videos for our meetings, you and I for, well, I dunno since 2013, I think we've been doing that as our primary way of connecting with one another. So at our team meetings, our, our leadership meetings, our Monday morning meetings that we have at retreat, they've all been done via zoom or slack in some cases. So I think that there's some, some we've gleaned some things, not just from the church, but from the business world on how to do these things. So, uh, let me start out with, uh, with this here is the first one is I think it's important to before you do a zoom small group is that you have clear expectations and you lay out the ground rules for everybody.
Speaker 0 00:05:12 That's going to be a part of the small group. So I think that if you, everybody has been familiar with zoom, it seems like people have been on a zoom meeting for some kind, I'd say a lot of people have done zoom meetings for their work. Some of them have done it, we've done it for school. There's lots of places that we've done zoom meetings. And I think that every place has different expectations. So we're gonna go through some of the expectations in this conversation, but I think what's important is that at the beginning that you would be really specific on what the expectations are, uh, when to show up what you're going to have done ahead of time, uh, what you're gonna be ready to talk about, encouraging everybody to chime in and speaking, this is a lot of the things we're gonna be talking about today, but I think the first thing you should do before you even start a zoom small group meeting, uh, is lay out the expectation. This is probably good advice for any small group that's meeting, uh, is that you would lay out, what's expected of a small group member, how we're committing to one another, how we're going to hold one, another accountable, all those kinds of things. But I think it's especially important in this zoom era because it's tougher to get connection naturally, uh, that we actually have that conversation and lay out the ground rules. Uh, great. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:06:18 Yeah. Agreed. No, that's a good one for sure. Yeah. Cause I mean, it's, it's, it's different. Right. And I, I think a lot of people are still not used to it. So I think you lay out ground rules in a normal small group too, so absolutely. Yup. That was good. Good. Well, I'll take on the next one here is that everyone should have their cameras on. Um, this is pretty funny. So, uh, this reminded me when I, when I first, you know, when we talked about this point and when I first saw this point, uh, that we were going to cover here as far as having your cameras on it. It reminded me of when, when the shutdown initially happened in the pandemic, I, as you know, I've do a bootcamp workouts. Uh, so I've I, and those got, you know, shut down for a while.
Speaker 3 00:07:00 So even though they're outdoor workouts, they were still shut down. So, uh, my trainer started doing zoom workouts. So basically there could be about 15 or more, you know, people on a, on a zoom thing. And it's funny, he wanted the cameras to be on, to see everyone doing the, uh, doing the workout and the exercises. And if someone had their camera off, he'd be like, Hey, I can't see you can't, I don't know what you're doing right now. I don't know how to coach you on that or whatever on that movement. So it was just pretty funny, uh, that there would be a couple of people always on those that didn't have the camera on. And I think when it comes to a small group, you know, the temptation would be to maybe have it off just because you're, I don't know you're at home and maybe there's a, um, what's in the background and you don't like the picture in the background where you're sitting or there's, or there's kids running around or something like that. Uh, but it's, it's really important obviously to when a camera's on, you know, someone's engaged and you can, you can interact better. Right. It's just an yeah. So I think that's, and there's other reasons too, of course. So
Speaker 0 00:08:05 I think that's the primary, uh, but not to what you were saying. Um, my kids here in Hawaii, we had a remote education remote school for my kids for a year and a half. So like March and through all of the following school year. So, um, I guess five quarters of a school year, um, we had remote education and they had a statewide policy that teachers couldn't have. The kids have their cameras on. They couldn't make them have their cameras on. They encourage them to do it, but they couldn't make it because it was something to do with equity and trying to make sure that everybody, uh, like the kids wouldn't be embarrassed by their home surroundings and some of those kinds of things. Right, right. Understand the, the, the heart behind something like that. I have to tell you, it was a huge to kids because those that if you don't have your camera on, uh, I can tell you like, just as someone who's guilty of it, if my camera's off, uh, I'm not totally paying attention.
Speaker 0 00:09:08 In most cases, I'm not staring at the camera now. And this, I mean, obviously we're hosting a podcast that we're doing via video right now. And so we, we have to pay attention to this. But if I, if someone else is leading a meeting, someone else is talking, uh, and my camera's off that's probably because I'm not going to be fully engaged with something. So I think it's just really important as part of the ground rules is that you say that you're going to have your camera on. And if there's some kind of an issue of someone not having a camera on their computer or on their phone or something like that, I don't, I don't know how that can happen tonight, take a donation and buy them a $20 webcam or do something like that and make it happen. It's worth your while for something like that.
Speaker 0 00:09:46 So, uh, this is, uh, an absolute must. If I'm hosting a small group, um, on zoom cameras have to be on now, uh, as a rule, like, so sometimes people will turn their cameras off briefly. Um, but you know what I think even that is overdone. Like if you're in a group and you have to sneeze for instance, or cough, um, you know, you don't, you don't leave the room to go cough and sneeze and then come back. Now, if it's a sneezing fit, turn off your camera, do those things, but you don't have to do that every single time. You're going to do something like that. Um, maybe you're not totally comfortable with, so be, be yourself, treat it like you're actually there in person. Don't turn off your camera, unless it's something you would actually leave the room for. I think that's probably a good ground rule for that.
Speaker 0 00:10:32 That's good. That's definitely next one. Let me hit it. Take time for small talk. This is something that I think is missed a lot of times, because we feel like if we're on zoom, we have to stick to the agenda, do what we're supposed to do, knock it out and get it done because there's this assumption that nobody likes being on zoom. Right. It's kind of true, right? Like I, I think that how many times have we been on zoom meetings that we're like, oh my goodness, I have to be on the zoom meeting. We hate being there. And it's something we don't really want to do. And that's because we've been part of so many bad, bad zoom meetings, but I think it's important that you take time for small talk. And I think that if it's a group of 30 people, if that's what your small groups are, well, you can't have everybody just kind of shining in and doing small talk, but the typical small group is going to be six to 10 or 12 people.
Speaker 0 00:11:19 You can have some back and forth there. You can chat, have fun comment on things together. And I think this is really important. I was a part of one group at our church, uh, and I wasn't leading the group. And I, I remember that, uh, there were all kinds of people in the group that I didn't know, I had never, I'd never really met before. Uh, and the people that were leading the group, they knew everybody, but it was obvious to me that not everybody within the group knew each other and we met for eight weeks. And I got to tell you, like, I didn't know some of the people's names still after meeting together for eight weeks. And could you imagine going to an in-person small group eight weeks and not knowing someone's name right. And this happened. And I think it was because we were so quick to get down to business, uh, that we, we skipped over a lot of, Hey, how's life. How are the kids, what are your kids' names? What age are they, what, uh, what school do they go to? What hobbies do you have? And, you know, it's, it can be really challenging. I think if you're, if you're skipping on that kind of part, what do you have to add?
Speaker 3 00:12:19 Yeah, not much. I think too, just because zoom is a little bit more of a challenge and it's, I guess a little more unnatural if I can put it that way. And I guess in my opinion, it, for most people, I think it's a little bit of a challenge. I mean, like you said before, we're good at it here. We use it. Uh, we used it for not just small groups, but for what we do at reach. Right. But I think too, that's small talk is even more important over zoom because, because it is kind of a challenge and because I think the tendency would be to kind of rush and get through it, like you said, but I think, you know, it's, it's already less personal, so it's more important to, to be even more personal. So I think, you know, to, to have that effort and I think it'll make it a little bit more enjoyable for people if you do the small talk to
Speaker 0 00:13:01 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you and I have been in business for so long, and I know you do a lot of the sales side of things and you know, sometimes people think it's like some kind of a sales trick or something, but in reality, like just building relationship is an important part of any kind of working relationship. It's like, we don't, we don't want to have a, we don't want to have clients that we don't know anything about. And don't like, you know, we wanna, we want to be friends with the people that we serve. I know. And so we've seen the value of this and it's part of our process is building relationship and learning about people that we're talking to and where they're from and what they're like, and those guys. So I think that's right. Yeah. I think, yeah, it goes in,
Speaker 3 00:13:40 Yeah, that's what I was going to say. That next one is don't neglect relationships. So we're already kind of addressing this. I think that that's, that's the thing is you still can build relationship, you know, on a zoom, small group, a group. We did, we did, we actually did, to your point earlier, there was someone new that came in during the pandemic, uh, uh, for my small group, which my small group was meeting physically, and then we were forced to start on zoom. So we already <inaudible> is a good word. We were, we were forced at that time, I guess. Uh, I guess we weren't, we, we could have still met in a driveway, but we did zoom. So, but, uh, but anyway, um, so yeah, I, and there was someone new and, and by them being able to tell their story, like, you know, w what led them to the group, you know, they, they kind of shared how God came into their lives, their testimony, and that, and, and, and through that, we were able to build relationship and interact. So I think that that's, uh, that's huge because again, getting back to the small talk, it is a little more difficult to build relationship over video than it is in person. So again, it's all the more important to take the effort to do it.
Speaker 0 00:14:48 Yeah. Yep. No, I think you're exactly right with that. So I'll get the next one. Uh, it is a layout and agenda with timeframes at the start of every meeting. Uh, so I think this is really important because you have to recognize that a lot of people have done, they have zoom fatigue, right? So we've, we've been on zoom and we have these conversations. I know you spend, you know, on a good day, you spend three or four hours probably on these kinds of video calls and those things. And I probably spend one or two in a day on these kinds of video calls here, so we can get fatigued with this stuff. And if I'm being totally honest, how many times have I been in a zoom meeting and looking at my watch, maybe I'll turn my camera off for a second, looking at my watch and see how much, how much longer is, could this possibly go on.
Speaker 0 00:15:36 Uh, if you're having an hour and a half, a two hour small group meeting, I think it's important that you kind of set that expectations for people as to how long this is going to be going on and what the elements are going to be. So, um, you know, you don't have to say, we're going to take three minutes for Susie to do her small talk. You know, we're not going to do that, but I think, you know, we'll, you know, we'll, we'll kind of, after you do some small talk in those things, maybe you have some kind of like an ice breaker, you'll say, Hey, we're going to, I have a funny question. I want to talk about, we'll spend about 10 or so minutes on that, that we want to get into a time of, uh, just getting into the word together. That's going to be about 15 minutes.
Speaker 0 00:16:10 I want to do maybe about 30 minutes of discussion and get some of your feedback on that. And then we'll pray and kind of wrap up, uh, probably at around eight 30 tonight. So everybody okay with that. So if you kind of lay that out, everybody knows that that's what the expectation is. That's what they're going to plan for. And people will be less kind of sitting there wondering, oh my goodness, is this going to go on all night? I still haven't eaten yet. And I'm tired. And they'll, they'll just kind of, uh, maybe in a sense, they'll resign to it till they'll understand what, uh, what to expect is happening next. But I think that's just really a right thing, but the key is stick with it. Don't say, we're going to do that. And then take an hour for discussion and visit fit and finish at nine 15. It doesn't really work that way. So what do you have to add?
Speaker 3 00:16:53 And not much if you have that long-winded person too, this gives you an excuse to say, Hey, just a reminder. We only have about 15 more minutes, wanted to get to bill over here too. So, uh, but, uh, anyway,
Speaker 0 00:17:04 I don't have that loss person. If you don't have that person, who is it? You right. If you don't have that long-winded person, you're the one. So watch out For it. The next one for it. No, I'm not saying you personally,
Speaker 3 00:17:18 I'm admitting to it. Oh, I mean, I know I'm saying I am that guy.
Speaker 0 00:17:23 So wouldn't you think that, I think I, I look at the feed here and how much time I'm on camera. Cause I'm definitely the, long-winded one of us too. I think what it
Speaker 3 00:17:32 <inaudible> for sure. I'm just talking about in my small group. So, but now, now it's good stuff. So encourage everyone to chime in. So again, I wouldn't have any, like we just said, you or I would not have any problem Chi-Ming in, there's going to be, there's going to be those shy ones and those types, uh, uh, and, and also I think it's E it probably sometimes for those types of folks to get it even a little more shy over zoom, because it's just a little, you know, it's just, they, they kind of have a natural way out then, right. Because you know, when you're in person, it does force you to, to be a little more social. Uh, but here, you know, it's good. You want everyone to feel a part of the community in the group too, if they want to make sure everyone knows that they're important. Uh, even though it's a zoom thing that a leader might be kind of leading the discussion through, you know, for everyone to have an opportunity to chime in as a good thing. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:18:27 Being on camera you're right. There's some people that just, even though they, they may not feel that strange in person being on camera makes them feel weird. Like it's a performance or they're being watched. I don't know what it is exactly. But I think this is a good rule for any small group that you're leading, but sometimes we are more willing to let it go because people aren't right there in front of you, uh, like, you know how most of these zoom meetings work is the sits usually a speaker view as what people will use. And so if it's a speaker view, you'll see whoever's talking and that person who hasn't talked all night, they're not even going to show up on it on your speaker, have you ever, and it can be kind of out of sight out of mind. So you need to be really intentional about this and say, Hey, this is the person that I haven't heard them speak. I'm going to ask them to chime in now, uh, you know, you do it with grace, you do it with an opportunity where they don't have to say anything, but just something like, Hey, uh, Betsy, do you have anything to add to that? Or, Hey, Betsy, you seem like someone who would know about this, what, what do you think? But giving them an opportunity to,
Speaker 3 00:19:24 We did persons small group here with the name. Betsy, go ahead. Too many bets.
Speaker 0 00:19:30 We thought about naming our daughter, Betsy. No, It will be another old tiny name. So
Speaker 3 00:19:37 It's still a little more modern. So, but anyway. Cool, cool.
Speaker 0 00:19:41 Uh, next one is considered breakout rooms. Uh, this is a good way if your group is, I'd say eight plus, uh, I think you start to look into using breakout rooms for those that don't know, zoom has a function where you can break out into other rooms. So your group of eight or 10 or 16 can be broken into two or three or four parts. Uh, and this could be a good way, I think, especially for, uh, kind of prayer times or, um, some of the deeper discussion. I think it's really good to do that kind of thing. I think groups of, of three to four on zoom, they really are good for intimate conversation. I think as you get up to eight or 10, I think it'd be really challenging. Uh, so, um, yeah, but I think this is a good tool to use, use those breakout rooms to facilitate conversations. I think they're great for building relationship. I think even for the small talk part, I think that's really a good place to do. Kind of, you could get into some small groups, meet someone, or have people come to couples, go together and kind of get to know each other for a second in their own breakout rooms, lots of ways to use it. But I think it's a worthwhile tool.
Speaker 3 00:20:44 That's good. Nothing more to add. I let me lead us home because I like this last one it's prey, right? So we always have a call to action, right? And this is a, the call to action at the end of a group should be to pray. I mean, uh, I just prayed over the phone before the prayer doesn't always happen. Uh, has to ha doesn't have to happen in person. I mean, we know that the word of God says to, you know, lay hands and those types of things, of course, during the pandemic, laying of hands a different story. Uh, but, uh, but, uh, it's, it's really important to pray. Obviously, God's going to still hear these prayers over zoom, uh, and honor these prayers over zoom. And I think that to, again, this, this for everything we've been talking about going deeper relationship, it's a great way to close and it's a great way also, I think for everyone to be heard, you know, depending on, uh, you know, how many people decide to pray or whatever, but, um, yeah, it's, it's a good, good thing to do.
Speaker 0 00:21:37 Well, I know you and I, I mean, that's kind of our company rule is that every time we have a, uh, certainly a company meeting, uh, we, we take time to finish and prayer. I know you and I have been praying together via video for years now, almost a decade, probably almost every time that we would connect on this. So I think it's really important. I, I, when I was pastoring a church in Wisconsin, I know that, um, that was one thing that was a little bit strange for our staff. And I don't know why this seems strange to say this, but I had to tell them, do not ever have a meeting where you don't pray at the end. Like that's something that you should do. And that's not just even a zoom rule as we do. You go to coffee with somebody, pray, pray with them at the end, take a time to pray together and, and do that.
Speaker 0 00:22:20 That that's something it's such a, there's such an intimacy. And, you know, we, we love Jesus together. That's what we're trying to do is, is build a relationship and people. So I think that there may be some awkwardness, I think for people in praying on zoom. And I probably wouldn't be careful. I'm asking everybody to pray out on zoom because there are gonna be people that are already uncomfortable praying in person, how much more so that might even be uncomfortable for them praying on zoom and, you know, feeling like their words are being watched even more closely. So be cautious with that. But I think you don't have any, any fear or feeling that maybe praying, or maybe we don't meet the requirement of two or three being gathered. So God will hear us. All of that is his foolishness. God definitely hears your prayers. We've been praying together. You and I, even for a decade on zoom and video sources like that. So
Speaker 3 00:23:10 I say, oh, Thomas is in Hawaii, ends in Texas. I can't honor that lesson,
Speaker 0 00:23:15 But yeah, two or three, just they have to be together. I think that it's a, I think that it's something that I bet a lot of our audience is tentative about that just because printing, uh, in a video format is just a little bit, uh, it can be stressful for people. So, um, I just want to encourage you to get over the hump. I think once you do it a few times, it becomes second nature. Uh, but B be praying in your small groups. That's a good conclusion.
Speaker 3 00:23:42 Awesome.
Speaker 0 00:23:42 Well, good guys. Thank you so much for being a part of our family. Uh, it means a lot to us that you guys watch and, uh, and listen to this weekend and week out. If this is something that's valuable to you, please do give us a review. You can do that on iTunes or Google podcast. You can leave us a comment on YouTube or Facebook, wherever you're watching this or listening to it. The more you do that, the more it helps us to get the word out there about the retried podcasts. So we hope it's been a help to you today. We hope to catch you next week. God bless. Thanks for listening to the reach right podcast. We hope this episode will help you reach people the right way, looking for more resources for your church. Check us out
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